Feral druid talents - Feral Agression vs. Feral Instinct

[yozik]

To get to the 3rd tier, is it better to put points into Feral Agression
vs. Feral Instinct? Ferocity is a no-brainer, IMO. Agression - 130 AP
debuff (at 52) becomes 182, good for saving your butt in tough
situations. But with 15% more treat, tanking would be somewhat easier.
Would increased Demo Roar build more aggro?
I think Thick Hide is questionnable - we get enough armor at the end of
the game anyway.
Opinions?

[Christian Stauffer]

Post by yozik
To get to the 3rd tier, is it better to put points into Feral Agression
vs. Feral Instinct?

Feral Agression: Increases the damage reduction of your demoralising roar
Feral Instinct: Increases Threat generated in bear form by 15% (5/5) and
decreases the chance enemy spot you when stealthed

Demo roar is a nice tool to grab initial aggro, and whener I have spare
points I put them in FA. The damage reduction is a nice goodie, but it
doesn't make a difference that's high enough to justify skipping 15%
more threat overall.

You got spare points: Why not putting them in FA? You have to pick
between FA and the 15% more threat of FI? Don't even think about putting
a point in FA.

Post by yozik
Ferocity is a no-brainer, IMO.

It reduces all your important cat and bear form abilities rage/energy
costs, I'd consider this the most important talent in the feral tree.

Post by yozik
Agression - 130 AP
debuff (at 52) becomes 182, good for saving your butt in tough
situations.

It will never save your butt. It makes only sense in a party (or even
more in a raid) where you can debuff everyone around you (it's real
AoE, it affects everyone in range). Demo roar IS a nice tool, but
raising it from -130AP to -182AP is no reason for spending 5 talent
points as long as you can use the somewhere else.

Post by yozik
But with 15% more treat, tanking would be somewhat easier.

Yep.

Post by yozik
Would increased Demo Roar build more aggro?

It will definitely not even be close to those 15% (for everything
you do in bear form).

Post by yozik
I think Thick Hide is questionnable - we get enough armor at the end of
the game anyway.

I got 1 point in TH, basically because there was nothing else left where
I could have put it.
Yes, we do have enough armor in the end, the problem is that armor is our
only way of damage mitigation: No block, no parry, no defense skill (hard
to come by).
I didn't consider it worth spending otherwise needed talent points,
though.

Post by yozik
Opinions?

Sharpened claws + primal fury = A lot more rage (= more damage and more
threat). That's the only tip I can give you :-)

Chris

[Stavros Christoforou]

Post by Christian Stauffer

Post by yozik
To get to the 3rd tier, is it better to put points into Feral Agression
vs. Feral Instinct?

Feral Agression: Increases the damage reduction of your demoralising roar
Feral Instinct: Increases Threat generated in bear form by 15% (5/5) and
decreases the chance enemy spot you when stealthed
Demo roar is a nice tool to grab initial aggro, and whener I have spare
points I put them in FA. The damage reduction is a nice goodie, but it
doesn't make a difference that's high enough to justify skipping 15%
more threat overall.
You got spare points: Why not putting them in FA? You have to pick
between FA and the 15% more threat of FI? Don't even think about putting
a point in FA.

Post by yozik
Ferocity is a no-brainer, IMO.

It reduces all your important cat and bear form abilities rage/energy
costs, I'd consider this the most important talent in the feral tree.

Post by yozik
Agression - 130 AP
debuff (at 52) becomes 182, good for saving your butt in tough
situations.

It will never save your butt. It makes only sense in a party (or even
more in a raid) where you can debuff everyone around you (it's real
AoE, it affects everyone in range). Demo roar IS a nice tool, but
raising it from -130AP to -182AP is no reason for spending 5 talent
points as long as you can use the somewhere else.

Post by yozik
But with 15% more treat, tanking would be somewhat easier.

Yep.

Post by yozik
Would increased Demo Roar build more aggro?

It will definitely not even be close to those 15% (for everything
you do in bear form).

Post by yozik
I think Thick Hide is questionnable - we get enough armor at the end of
the game anyway.

I got 1 point in TH, basically because there was nothing else left where
I could have put it.
Yes, we do have enough armor in the end, the problem is that armor is our
only way of damage mitigation: No block, no parry, no defense skill (hard
to come by).
I didn't consider it worth spending otherwise needed talent points,
though.

Post by yozik
Opinions?

Sharpened claws + primal fury = A lot more rage (= more damage and more
threat). That's the only tip I can give you :-)
Chris

Agreed. Basically, both talents are fairly equal(ly useless) for pvp, as
most rogues will see you before you see them anyway (they all have
maxed their talent), while the AP reduction is not good enough to save
your ass in pvp. Therefore, looking at PvE:

Feral aggression will give you a bigger demo roar, and therefore two
things: less dmg taken and a little more aggro. This means that the
healer will have less dmg to heal, but could well aggro the mobs while
doing so. On the other hand, Feral instinct will give you a (huge) 15%
extra aggro on each mob you pull. This means that you will take more
damage, but you will also: (a) Generate more rage for swipes - ie more
aggro and (b) not lose aggro easily. When tanking , I would personally
prefer the healer to have more dmg to heal than to have aggro, and I am
sure most people will agree.

As for thick hide, only put points in it if you have nowhere else to put
them, but with a standard 0/30/21 build there are always better options.

[Alex]

Post by Stavros Christoforou
As for thick hide, only put points in it if you have nowhere else to put
them, but with a standard 0/30/21 build there are always better options.

0/46/5 works a treat PvE ;-)

[Stavros Christoforou]

Post by Alex

Post by Stavros Christoforou
As for thick hide, only put points in it if you have nowhere else to put
them, but with a standard 0/30/21 build there are always better options.

0/46/5 works a treat PvE ;-)

Indeed it does, however if you are in a guild or you do group pvp there
will be times when your healing is needed, and in these times 30/21 is
infinitely better than 46/5. Simply put, the 16 extra points in resto
give a much better return than the 16 extra points in feral.

[Christian Stauffer]

Post by Stavros Christoforou

Post by Alex
0/46/5 works a treat PvE ;-)

If you're going for a full feral spec like that, put enough points in
resto for furor AND imp enrage, and consider putting 7 points in
balance for natural weapons (10% more melee damage on EVERYTHING is
worth 7 points, believe me).

Post by Stavros Christoforou
Indeed it does, however if you are in a guild or you do group pvp there
will be times when your healing is needed, and in these times 30/21 is
infinitely better than 46/5. Simply put, the 16 extra points in resto
give a much better return than the 16 extra points in feral.

46 points in feral is indeed overkill (and kinda useless, as a pure
feral build benefits more from 7 points in balance and resto).

The best druid build, if you want to play a druid with all his strengths,
is indeed a 30/21 build. Good damage, good threat, good healing.
You can be a kickass support class being 2nd healer/tank , providing
a group with an additional tank, damage dealer or healer depending
on the situation. While you don't give up the ability to be MT or main
healer in anything up to ZG (with good gear of course).

It even makes more sense for PvP, as natures swiftness is a crucial
thing there (oh my god do I miss this spell).

31 points in restoration are only needed when you feel you have to
satisfy the people who yell for innervates or consider druids
without innervate useless. Otherwise, the 30 points in feral
(resulting in 20% more int in caster form) make up for a lot
of missed resto talents.

More than 30 points in feral are more or less an e-penor thing
for people like me who pretend to be tanks or rogues :o)

Chris

[Alex]

Post by Christian Stauffer
46 points in feral is indeed overkill (and kinda useless, as a pure
feral build benefits more from 7 points in balance and resto).

The build is more of a test, to see if it's functional from the free respec
after the patch. It means none of that nasty "Should I shave a point here to
spend there". 46 points is everything maxed out. Knee jerk reaction to being
forced into the healer role at 60, pre-patch, I'm now as far removed from
being 'Inervate on legs' as I can get :-p

Yes there are talents in other tree's that would be nice, and maybe I'll
check them out....or even the moonkin form.

All in good time

[Nabuu]

Post by Alex
Yes there are talents in other tree's that would be nice, and maybe I'll
check them out....or even the moonkin form.

I took moonkin after the free respec. I wasn't really that interested
in it, as I don't group often enough to get full benefit, but I figured
I'd never spec it "with my own money", so it'd be fun to get for a while.

Haven't decided what I think, yet. He does the slutty gnome-male dance,
which certainly looks funny :)

[yozik]

Post by Christian Stauffer

Post by Alex
0/46/5 works a treat PvE ;-)

If you're going for a full feral spec like that, put enough points in
resto for furor AND imp enrage, and consider putting 7 points in
balance for natural weapons (10% more melee damage on EVERYTHING is
worth 7 points, believe me).

I don't see how you get 7 points. It's a 2nd tier 5 points talent. For
7 you get 4%, to get 10% you need 10 points.

[Christian Stauffer]

Post by yozik
I don't see how you get 7 points. It's a 2nd tier 5 points talent. For
7 you get 4%, to get 10% you need 10 points.

Yep you're right, I thought natural weapons was a 2 point talent.
It's 10 points in balance (for NW) and 7 points in resto (furor
and imp. enrage).

Chris

[yozik]

It would be too big a sacrifice to miss Improved MOW, if I would go
"full feral" I'd still have 10 balance and 10 resto - 5/5 improved MOW,
3/5 Furor and 2/2 improved Enrage.

[Brian]

"Bother!", said Pooh, as he read Christian Stauffer's latest post to
alt.games.warcraft.

Post by Christian Stauffer
The best druid build, if you want to play a druid with all his strengths,
is indeed a 30/21 build. Good damage, good threat, good healing.
You can be a kickass support class being 2nd healer/tank , providing
a group with an additional tank, damage dealer or healer depending
on the situation. While you don't give up the ability to be MT or main
healer in anything up to ZG (with good gear of course).
It even makes more sense for PvP, as natures swiftness is a crucial
thing there (oh my god do I miss this spell).
31 points in restoration are only needed when you feel you have to
satisfy the people who yell for innervates or consider druids
without innervate useless. Otherwise, the 30 points in feral
(resulting in 20% more int in caster form) make up for a lot
of missed resto talents.
More than 30 points in feral are more or less an e-penor thing
for people like me who pretend to be tanks or rogues :o)

Or, if you're in a big raiding guild that already has a ton of
priests/resto-druids, and your rogues/hunters think that Leader of the Pack
is the best thing since sliced bread.

Brian