Haste Rating vs Spell Power vs Crit Chance for Frost Mage

[Michael C]

Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial to go
for? I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance rewards I have
mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit chance. Is this wise?

I eat imperial manta steak to get an extra 40 haste which tops my haste up
to 540, giving my frostbolt spell a casting time of 2.10 seconds (it would
normally be 2.5 seconds without any haste). I have alchemy so with a spell
power potion my spell power is at 969 but my crit chance is a very low
4.85% - but a frost mage gets a bonus of 50% against frozen targets so I
don't think it is as important. Hit rating is 27 but that hasn't been a
problem so far.

I looked on Google but couldn't find much on what to go for.

[KillerLoop]

Post by Michael C
Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial to go
for? I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance rewards I have
mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit chance. Is this wise?

No. Spell power IS your damage.

Post by Michael C
I eat imperial manta steak to get an extra 40 haste which tops my haste up
to 540, giving my frostbolt spell a casting time of 2.10 seconds (it would
normally be 2.5 seconds without any haste). I have alchemy so with a
spell power potion my spell power is at 969 but my crit chance is a very
low 4.85% - but a frost mage gets a bonus of 50% against frozen targets so
I don't think it is as important. Hit rating is 27 but that hasn't been a
problem so far.
I looked on Google but couldn't find much on what to go for.

I have a shadow priest and my priority list is:

1. spell power
2. hit
3. crit
4. haste, mana regen

[Michael C]

Post by KillerLoop

Post by Michael C
Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial to go
for? I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance rewards I
have mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit chance. Is this
wise?

No. Spell power IS your damage.

Post by Michael C
I eat imperial manta steak to get an extra 40 haste which tops my haste
up to 540, giving my frostbolt spell a casting time of 2.10 seconds (it
would normally be 2.5 seconds without any haste). I have alchemy so with
a spell power potion my spell power is at 969 but my crit chance is a
very low 4.85% - but a frost mage gets a bonus of 50% against frozen
targets so I don't think it is as important. Hit rating is 27 but that
hasn't been a problem so far.
I looked on Google but couldn't find much on what to go for.

1. spell power
2. hit
3. crit
4. haste, mana regen

But a shadow priest is different because most of the spells are instant DoT
which wouldn't benefit from haste.

When does increasing spell power get to the point of diminishing returns?
If I can get off 3 or 4 spells to someone elses 2 or 3 it would be more
damage overall.

[JohnR]

Post by Michael C

Post by KillerLoop

Post by Michael C
Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial
to go for? I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance
rewards I have mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit
chance. Is this wise?

No. Spell power IS your damage.

Post by Michael C
I eat imperial manta steak to get an extra 40 haste which tops my
haste up to 540, giving my frostbolt spell a casting time of 2.10
seconds (it would normally be 2.5 seconds without any haste). I
have alchemy so with a spell power potion my spell power is at 969
but my crit chance is a very low 4.85% - but a frost mage gets a
bonus of 50% against frozen targets so I don't think it is as
important. Hit rating is 27 but that hasn't been a problem so far.
I looked on Google but couldn't find much on what to go for.

1. spell power
2. hit
3. crit
4. haste, mana regen

But a shadow priest is different because most of the spells are
instant DoT which wouldn't benefit from haste.
When does increasing spell power get to the point of diminishing returns?

It doesn't, each new spell damage point applies exactly the same boost and
suffers exactly the same coefficents per spell as the point before it, the
complication is with haste and at what level haste rating becomes more
valuable than spell damage - point for point - as a DPS stat. As far as I
know it isn't yet possible to achieve at level 80 what was possible at level
70 where a spell damage total of around 1k2 to 1k3 saw spell haste become
the primary hit capped DPS stat. In WotlK 2k5 to 2k6 spell damage will see
hit capped haste becoming more valuable per point.

Post by Michael C
If I can get off 3 or 4 spells to someone elses 2 or 3 it
would be more damage overall.

All other things being equal yes but that's seldom the case, someone with a
much higher crit rate in relatively short, heavy movement/interuption fights
like the spider wing bosses in Naxx could get a chance to completely
dominate a haste build if the moons aligned. Short burst casting windows
don't reward haste in anything like the same way that longer, stand still
spamming fights like Patchwerk do. When chain casting breaks for whatever
reason are minimal or ideally none existent, the predictable nature of haste
gets the uninterrupted spam time it needs to really shine over crit and get
the job done. The big advantage haste as a stat has is that it's much
cheaper item budget makes it easy to gear for and that talents are generally
a much easier way to obtain expensive crit rates.

Your idea of being able to cast 3 spells to someone elses 2 is not realistic
and would require a huge haste rating difference, a more realistic number
would be 8-9 to 9-10 which itself is a very significant 10%-20% faster.

[Michael C]

Post by JohnR

Post by Michael C
If I can get off 3 or 4 spells to someone elses 2 or 3 it
would be more damage overall.

All other things being equal yes but that's seldom the case, someone with
a much higher crit rate in relatively short, heavy movement/interuption
fights like the spider wing bosses in Naxx could get a chance to
completely dominate a haste build if the moons aligned. Short burst
casting windows don't reward haste in anything like the same way that
longer, stand still spamming fights like Patchwerk do. When chain casting
breaks for whatever reason are minimal or ideally none existent, the
predictable nature of haste gets the uninterrupted spam time it needs to
really shine over crit and get the job done. The big advantage haste as a
stat has is that it's much cheaper item budget makes it easy to gear for
and that talents are generally a much easier way to obtain expensive crit
rates.
Your idea of being able to cast 3 spells to someone elses 2 is not
realistic and would require a huge haste rating difference, a more
realistic number would be 8-9 to 9-10 which itself is a very significant
10%-20% faster.

Ok, thanks for all the replies. This is the clincher.

[Orion Ryder]

Post by JohnR

Post by Michael C

Post by KillerLoop

Post by Michael C
Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial
to go for?  I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance
rewards I have mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit
chance.  Is this wise?

No. Spell power IS your damage.

Post by Michael C
I eat imperial manta steak to get an extra 40 haste which tops my
haste up to 540, giving my frostbolt spell a casting time of 2.10
seconds (it would normally be 2.5 seconds without any haste).  I
have alchemy so with a spell power potion my spell power is at 969
but my crit chance is a very low 4.85% - but a frost mage gets a
bonus of 50% against frozen targets so I don't think it is as
important.  Hit rating is 27 but that hasn't been a problem so far.
I looked on Google but couldn't find much on what to go for.

1. spell power
2. hit
3. crit
4. haste, mana regen

But a shadow priest is different because most of the spells are
instant DoT which wouldn't benefit from haste.
When does increasing spell power get to the point of diminishing returns?

It doesn't, each new spell damage point applies exactly the same boost and
suffers exactly the same coefficents per spell as the point before it, the
complication is with haste and at what level haste rating becomes more
valuable than spell damage - point for point - as a DPS stat. As far as I
know it isn't yet possible to achieve at level 80 what was possible at level
70 where a spell damage total of around 1k2 to 1k3 saw spell haste become
the primary hit capped DPS stat. In WotlK 2k5 to 2k6 spell damage will see
hit capped haste becoming more valuable per point.

Post by Michael C
If I can get off 3 or 4 spells to someone elses 2 or 3 it
would be more damage overall.

All other things being equal yes but that's seldom the case, someone with a
much higher crit rate in relatively short, heavy movement/interuption fights
like the spider wing bosses in Naxx could get a chance to completely
dominate a haste build if the moons aligned. Short burst casting windows
don't reward haste in anything like the same way that longer, stand still
spamming fights like Patchwerk do. When chain casting breaks for whatever
reason are minimal or ideally none existent, the predictable nature of haste
gets the uninterrupted spam time it needs to really shine over crit and get
the job done. The big advantage haste as a stat has is that it's much
cheaper item budget makes it easy to gear for and that talents are generally
a much easier way to obtain expensive crit rates.
Your idea of being able to cast 3 spells to someone elses 2 is not realistic
and would require a huge haste rating difference, a more realistic number
would be 8-9 to 9-10 which itself is a very significant 10%-20% faster.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

2.1 vs 2.5 = 12 casts vs 10 casts. My comments

1) Seems like it would not even come in handy for trash fights. So
maybe long boss fights might have a use, emphasis on "might"; maybe
even long long boss fights.

2) Perhaps the higher crit on the 2.5 caster would balance out the
DPS. I would have to do some specific math but I jsut don't have the
time.

3) For AoE I think I would prefer crit over haste. This from my frost
mages perspective. I noticed over the last few weeks that on a long
ice storm (or is it blizzard, sometimes I am confused tween Diablo and
WoW) that some hits over the period were regular and some were crits.

4) If I knew I was going to be doing a lot of frostbolting for a
certain fight perhaps I would throw on haste gear. Fool that I am I've
been known (maybe even not known) to carry two sets of gear around on
several of my toons.

Great thread, as this is soemthign that I was wondering about since
WotLK came out and I saw all these haste items drop.

For my healing priest I have been stressing spell power and mana
regen. The way I look at it is if the spell power is high enough and
the mana regen keeps me going that gets the job done. I tend to pick
crit over haste, but will pick haste over hit rating right away if
those are the options.

Orion

[Behemoth]

this is under the assumtion you are gearing for 80 raiding and have
reached the hit capped limit

443 (not quite too sure what it is exactly but know it's mid 400s)
with no skills in Hit Rating
368 with Percision
200ish with Arcane talents

For a raiding Mage level 80 you should be aiming for 2000dps minimum
to be effectively dps'ing mobs

don't get this mistaken with Spell Power as this DPS is purely the
amount of dmg over time you do per the amount of casting time while
incombat with targets and the average amount of dmg you have done for
the fight

you can get your average DPS via addons like Recount and a Target
Dummy that is equal to Heroic Boss Level

don't attack anything lower then the 80 Target Dummy as the numbers
won't be correct

Crit is a far more important stat for Fire Mages as the spells are
longer in casting time and require alot more Mana so you're going to
need alot of Mana Rotation

for Frost I'd rarely find myself running low on Mana and if so I'd
rotate a Mana Gem, Evocation, Mana Gem, Mana Potion

I chose this Mana Rotation simply because the Gem is alot faster to
consume then a 8 second Channelled Spell that is on cooldown verse a 1
minute cool down

now back to your question

I'd say stacking Spell Power > Spell Crit for Frost as Spell Power
increases white non-crit Spell dmg

Frost is not the Spec that is built for Critting it's purely the
Survival spec and does it's job so

Arcane - Spell Power
Fire - Crit
Frost - Haste

Arcane is mostly Instant Cast Spells such as Arcane Barrage,Arcane
Missle Proc'd and Arcane Explosion

Spells that are in the Rotation can be Arcane Blast, Arcane Missle
unproc'd, Frostfire Bolt

Fire is purely about Crit the higher the crit you have the bigger the
damage is as Scorch will increase Spell Crit on Fire Spells by 10%

Hot Streak Proc'ing is instant 6 second casted Pyroblast

Frostfire Bolt Negates all resistance to Fire or Frost

Combustion and Living bomb are built for Critting

the spec also has talents to increase crit % ... but it's a very mana
intensive spec though it is one of the Highest DPS Single Target
Spec's for Mages

Frost is built around Snares and roots and slowing of targets

Spell Power is based but it's purely about outlasting the target

faster spells mean target remains snared

Winter's Chill + Shatter + Fingers of Frost are the Key talents along
with Frostbolt ... as far as I can remember they have left the
Improved Frostbolt up

but taken out Improved Water Elemental ... which makes the Water
Elemental almost pointless now because the whole reason for it was the
Improved Stats ... the regular one does little to no damage on
stronger targets .... making it useless

I've played all the Mage specs in my time

Arcane Barrage spec
Frost+ Shatter
Fire+ Living Bomb

and I've found that Fire for Raiding purposes is the strongest of the
single targets currently

the amount of Hot Streaks that pop with 33% crit rating unraid buffed
on Patchwerk in 10 man Naxx pushes me to 3800dps

with a base Spell Power of 1700

[JohnR]

Post by KillerLoop

Post by Michael C
Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial
to go for? I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance
rewards I have mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit
chance. Is this wise?

No. Spell power IS your damage.

Post by Michael C
I eat imperial manta steak to get an extra 40 haste which tops my
haste up to 540, giving my frostbolt spell a casting time of 2.10
seconds (it would normally be 2.5 seconds without any haste). I
have alchemy so with a spell power potion my spell power is at 969
but my crit chance is a very low 4.85% - but a frost mage gets a
bonus of 50% against frozen targets so I don't think it is as
important. Hit rating is 27 but that hasn't been a problem so far.
I looked on Google but couldn't find much on what to go for.

2. hit << this should be #1
1. spell power << this is #2
3. crit
4. haste, mana regen

Spell Hit is and always has been the single most important DPS boosting stat
in the raiding game - point for point -
That is until hit capped at which point any more becomes totally useless.

[JohnR]

Post by Michael C
Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial to
go for? I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance
rewards I have mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit
chance. Is this wise?
I eat imperial manta steak to get an extra 40 haste which tops my
haste up to 540, giving my frostbolt spell a casting time of 2.10
seconds (it would normally be 2.5 seconds without any haste). I have
alchemy so with a spell power potion my spell power is at 969 but my
crit chance is a very low 4.85% - but a frost mage gets a bonus of 50%
against frozen targets
so I don't think it is as important. Hit rating is 27 but that
hasn't been a problem so far.
I looked on Google but couldn't find much on what to go for.

Play to the frost spec strengths, those are mana efficiency and crit
boosting talents. Gear accordingly.
Therefore you need to forget about crit, stack damage and haste to the max.
Haste is a far more effective stat than crit due to it having much cheaper
budget requirements and being "always on".
As for a cut off there isn't one as far as haste and crit go - it's simply
the case you stack haste always given a point for point choice and forget
about crit - it isn't exciting but damn it's effective.

Take a look at TcoM for a fairly accurate representation of theorycraft and
how talents, stats and buffs translate to DPS
http://zaldinar.bounceme.net/tcom/

Since the 3.0.8 changes you'll be required to put 18 points into arcane for
3/3 TTW - to not do so is just crazy. So 18/0/53 is the spec.

Frost Spec (point for point DPS value) Spell Hit > Spell Damage > Spell
Haste > Spell Crit

Just the same as it's always been, the problem with frost is the terribly
dull raiding gameplay which basically revolves around 1 button Frostbolt
spam on bosses and 1 button Blizzard spam on trash.

[gerryq]

Post by Michael C
Does anyone know at what point haste rating is the most beneficial to go
for?  I have a frost mage at level 78 and on quest/instance rewards I have
mostly gone for haste over spell power and crit chance.  Is this wise?

At your level spell power is better than haste, and haste is much
better than crit.

Suppose at L80 you had 1200 spell power, 200 haste and 200 crit, and
your frostbolts do about 2200 damage when they don't crit. Say you
crit a third of of the time. Don't know where you are, but you can't
be too far away from those levels.

Then 100 spellpower would give you maybe 95 extra damage on non crits,
i.e. 4.3% extra damage overall.

100 haste would give you 3% extra haste on top of your current 106%.-
about 2.8% extra damage overall, at a certain cost in mana.

100 crit would give you 2.25% extra crit. Your crits already increase
your damage to 4/3 of what it would be without them, so the actual
damage percentage increase to your damage is only 1.7% of what it
would be without them.

The more you have of any of these, the less each increment is worth.
But for a long time, spell power will be the best... and from frost,
you will never be in a situation where crit rating is better than
haste, unless you are running OOM a lot,