Shadow Priest - Vampiric Touch Build

Post by Snowblade
In the BC Beta, I have been experimenting with the new Vampiric Touch (VT)
talent. Here are some things I found that may interest you shadow priests
since you will only get 1 free talent build. Fortunately in the beta, all
talent builds only cost 1 copper, leaving plenty of opportunity for
experimenting with talent builds.

Which I love, too.

Post by Snowblade
VT is a talent requiring 40 points in the shadow tree. VT is trainable up
to rank 3 at which time VT cost 425 mana, causes 690 shadow damage over 15
seconds, is a 1.5-sec cast with no cool down, and all party members (this
means you in solo) gain mana equal to 5% of any shadow damage you deal.
Now the first thing to notice is VT coupled with Mind Fray tends to obsolete
Mind Blast. I used to use Mind Blast as an opening move since it had a 1.5
sec cast time. Now I use VT as an opening move which also has a 1.5 sec
cast time. After the opening move I much prefer consecutive Mind Frays to
using Mind Blast. So the point of all this is I no longer spend 5 points in
the talent tree to reduce the cooldown of Mind blast.

The funny thing is, I tend to observe the opposite! I'm running around
with roughly 300 spell damage at level 63, and clearly I only use mind
flay to kill runners that I can't kill with SWD yet (there are some
that run at 50%) or in parties with mages/anything that can keep the
mobs off me.

Before reading my counterpoint, bear in mind that I'm playing troll,
and as such I get 3 blackout proc chances and 3 shadow weavings for
practically free every 10 seconds by being afk (shadowguard). It also
ticks for roughly as much as a shadow word: pain.

Post by Snowblade
Discipline Talents - 10 point(s)
Wand Specialization - rank 5/5 (note: this is primarily to get the next two
talents)
Improved Power Word: Fortitude - rank 2/2
Improved Power Word: Shield - rank 3/3

Okay, first thing, for a levelling build (and more generally speaking,
in TBC) I would switch imp power word: fortitude for martyrdom right
away. There comes the troll: I want to get hit. Getting hit serves a
lot of things for me, it gives me free damage, free stuns, free shadow
weaving, free mana, free healing for my team. I want to maximize this -
so yes, I intend on getting some bang from my buck when I get critted
some time, and martyrdom does just this: speed mind blast, free mind
flay, faster kill, bigger heals.

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Talents - 41 point(s)
Spirit Tap - rank 5/5
Blackout - rank 5/5
Improved Shadow Word: Pain - rank 2/2

insert shadow focus here. I usually put 3 points there. I'm always
fighting higher level mobs, so this practically equals higher damage
output. I hate resisted vampiric embraces.

Post by Snowblade
Improved Psychic Scream - rank 2/2
Mind Flay - rank 1/1
Improved Fade - rank 2/2

I don't see the point of that one here?

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Reach - rank 2/2
Shadow Weaving - rank 5/5

Being a troll means I can lower this one. I put either 3 or 4. 5 is
overkill, as I build up my weaves quite fast anyway (I get three "free"
additional hits in the first 10 seconds of melee range with
shadowguard).

Post by Snowblade
Silence - rank 1/1
Vampiric Embrace - rank 1/1
Focused Mind - rank 3/3

This talent is EXCELLENT. I personally always go for the improved
vampiric embrace, because with my lack of overall shadow experience
besides TBC it makes me stronger on hard pulls (elite/multiple mobs)
than darkness.

Post by Snowblade
Darkness - rank 5/5
Shadowform - rank 1/1
Misery - rank 5/5
Vampiric Touch - rank 1/1
Shadow Affinity - to reduce threat
Shadow Focus - reduce target's ability to resist shadow spells
Improved Mind Blast - discussed above
Improved Vampiric Embrace - improve % healed by VE
Shadow Resilience - reduce chance of spell crits on you
Shadow Power - increase crit chance of Mind Blast and SW: Death
As you can see this build is for quick kills dealing maximum damage over a
short time. With this build my shadow priest can kill same level mobs in
about 20 seconds using a shield cast, followed by VT, SW:P and 3 Mind Frays.
I try to use a wand as a finishing move to conserve mana (shield should
still be up). Using the Inner Focus talent which is the first talent I pick
up at level 61, mana expenditure is very small.

Hmm, no offense, but 20 seconds seems to be slower than me doing
SWpain, Vembrace, Vtouch, shadowguard, wand to death. That's my "mana
conserve grinding mode", and I don't need a shield for that :) I turn
into that "mode" when my life is at about half and mana at 5-10% and
can basically keep going forever.

That said, I discovered that pulling with pain then touch generally
does a better job: I get more mana ticks from the pain.

All things considered, I prefer mind blast to mind flay, especially
with shadow power. the increased crit chance really shortens the fights
and gives more time out of combat. A crit mind blast converts nicely
into life and mana and often gets the mob running away - which is
generally good for both pools. But there we differ, probably because
I've never really played with mind flay in the release and always found
it both overpowered and unreliable, if only that makes sense to you :P

Mind blast is more useful in pulls of 3, where I need to dispatch the
first one as fast as possible, after paining and touching both adds of
course. I managed a pull of 5 level 63 this morning, and chained the
next one without even waiting for the spirit tap to end :P

Post by Snowblade
Inner Focus - 1 point
Meditation - 2 points
Martyrdon - 2 points
Improved Inner Fire - 3 points
Mental Agility - 2 points
I would appreciate any feedback.

Well, shadowpriests are de facto overpowered (talk about constructive
:P). Your build looks okay, considering the small little differences in
gameplay are probably entirely due to me being a troll with
shadowguard.

The things to keep in mind are:
1) Trinkets change gameplay. You will get a trinket much like the
Zandalaran Hero Charm as quest rewards really quickly. A couple levels
later, you will quest a second trinket with similar powers. You also
get a trinket that acts like a permanent fade with a 5 min cooldown
from a green quest chain in Hellfire. I also got lucky in the second
instance with a healing trinket with pretty much the same effect as
Inner Focus (+53 heal, reduce next spell mana cost by 250, 3 mins
cooldown). These can/should help you design your build.

2) There are no "spirit" gear from quest rewards, so don't bother with
holy, it will only be a very painful tree to solo with.

I've tried a shadow/disc build, 31 shadow/22 disc. Improved Divine
spirit really adds a lot of potential, but it's not quite THE killing
machine that you get used to play with when you have 41+ in shadow.

I've tried a shadow/holy build as well 27 holy/26 shadow to be precise,
focusing purely on critical chance (surge of light/shadow power) and
spirit gear (spirit guidance/lifetap). I soloed a couple difficult
quests, but the downtime unfortunately is enormous (and costly in
drinks!). With that kind of build though, it's possible to kill a mob
in just a few seconds with only instants: pull with mind blast CRIT
surge of light CRIT surge of light CRIT shadow word:death CRIT. It
happened to me, with roughly 15% chance to crit (20% with holy spells,
30% with Mblast & SWdeath) :D

I expect this build to become really handsome with endgame/arena gear,
if the surge of light stays bugged the way it is (ie: can crit).

Snowblade

2006-11-13 13:42:29 UTC

Which I love, too.

The funny thing is, I tend to observe the opposite! I'm running around
with roughly 300 spell damage at level 63, and clearly I only use mind
flay to kill runners that I can't kill with SWD yet (there are some
that run at 50%) or in parties with mages/anything that can keep the
mobs off me.
Before reading my counterpoint, bear in mind that I'm playing troll,
and as such I get 3 blackout proc chances and 3 shadow weavings for
practically free every 10 seconds by being afk (shadowguard). It also
ticks for roughly as much as a shadow word: pain.

In the final build on the way to level 70 I do pick up 1 point in martydom.
However, I tend to agree and plan on moving 1 point from PW:F to give me 2
points in martydom.

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Talents - 41 point(s)
Spirit Tap - rank 5/5
Blackout - rank 5/5
Improved Shadow Word: Pain - rank 2/2

insert shadow focus here. I usually put 3 points there. I'm always
fighting higher level mobs, so this practically equals higher damage
output. I hate resisted vampiric embraces.

See my comment after shadow weaving..

Post by Snowblade
Improved Psychic Scream - rank 2/2
Mind Flay - rank 1/1
Improved Fade - rank 2/2

I don't see the point of that one here?

Agreed. A holdover from another life. Will move these two points to
Improved Vampiric Embrace.

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Reach - rank 2/2
Shadow Weaving - rank 5/5

Here is where we may differ. Look at the wording of shadow weaving versus
shadow focus.

Shadow Weaving (5 points) - Your Shadow damage spells have a 100% chance to
cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage ...

Shadow Focus - Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spell by
x%

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't 5 points in Shadow Weaving makes
Shadow Focus a waste?

Post by Snowblade
Silence - rank 1/1
Vampiric Embrace - rank 1/1
Focused Mind - rank 3/3

Ya, I was being conservative. On a timer I notice death comes in 12-13
seconds. Thanks for the mana conservation advice.

Post by Babe Bridou
That said, I discovered that pulling with pain then touch generally
does a better job: I get more mana ticks from the pain.

The reason I do VT before SW:P is to start my mana rebuilding with the very
first tick of SW:P.

Post by Babe Bridou
All things considered, I prefer mind blast to mind flay, especially
with shadow power. the increased crit chance really shortens the fights
and gives more time out of combat. A crit mind blast converts nicely
into life and mana and often gets the mob running away - which is
generally good for both pools. But there we differ, probably because
I've never really played with mind flay in the release and always found
it both overpowered and unreliable, if only that makes sense to you :P
Mind blast is more useful in pulls of 3, where I need to dispatch the
first one as fast as possible, after paining and touching both adds of
course. I managed a pull of 5 level 63 this morning, and chained the
next one without even waiting for the spirit tap to end :P

Post by Snowblade
Inner Focus - 1 point
Meditation - 2 points
Martyrdon - 2 points
Improved Inner Fire - 3 points
Mental Agility - 2 points
I would appreciate any feedback.

With the 1 point previously moved from PW:F to Martydom, this should read:

Inner Focus - 1 point
Meditation - 3 points
Martyrdon - +1 points to 2 points
Improved Inner Fire - 3 points
Mental Agility - 2 points

Post by Babe Bridou
Well, shadowpriests are de facto overpowered (talk about constructive
:P). Your build looks okay, considering the small little differences in
gameplay are probably entirely due to me being a troll with
shadowguard.
1) Trinkets change gameplay. You will get a trinket much like the
Zandalaran Hero Charm as quest rewards really quickly. A couple levels
later, you will quest a second trinket with similar powers. You also
get a trinket that acts like a permanent fade with a 5 min cooldown
from a green quest chain in Hellfire. I also got lucky in the second
instance with a healing trinket with pretty much the same effect as
Inner Focus (+53 heal, reduce next spell mana cost by 250, 3 mins
cooldown). These can/should help you design your build.
2) There are no "spirit" gear from quest rewards, so don't bother with
holy, it will only be a very painful tree to solo with.
I've tried a shadow/disc build, 31 shadow/22 disc. Improved Divine
spirit really adds a lot of potential, but it's not quite THE killing
machine that you get used to play with when you have 41+ in shadow.
I've tried a shadow/holy build as well 27 holy/26 shadow to be precise,
focusing purely on critical chance (surge of light/shadow power) and
spirit gear (spirit guidance/lifetap). I soloed a couple difficult
quests, but the downtime unfortunately is enormous (and costly in
drinks!). With that kind of build though, it's possible to kill a mob
in just a few seconds with only instants: pull with mind blast CRIT
surge of light CRIT surge of light CRIT shadow word:death CRIT. It
happened to me, with roughly 15% chance to crit (20% with holy spells,
30% with Mblast & SWdeath) :D
I expect this build to become really handsome with endgame/arena gear,
if the surge of light stays bugged the way it is (ie: can crit).

BombayMix

2006-11-13 13:52:54 UTC

Post by Snowblade

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Reach - rank 2/2
Shadow Weaving - rank 5/5

Here is where we may differ. Look at the wording of shadow weaving versus
shadow focus.
Shadow Weaving (5 points) - Your Shadow damage spells have a 100% chance to
cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage ...
Shadow Focus - Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spell by
x%
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't 5 points in Shadow Weaving makes
Shadow Focus a waste?

They are two different things, Shadow Focus reduces the chances you get
the dreaded "resists" text, where the target completely resists the
spell. If the spell hits Shadow Weaving increase the damage taken but
if the doesn't hit, ie resisted, Shadow Weaving does nothing for you.

I would regard Shadow Focus as a talent of debatable use. In theory it
sounds good but it's impossible to measure and thus now if it really
makes a difference. I have in my shadow priest.

Snowblade

2006-11-13 14:26:38 UTC

Post by BombayMix

Post by Snowblade

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Reach - rank 2/2
Shadow Weaving - rank 5/5

Here is where we may differ. Look at the wording of shadow weaving versus
shadow focus.
Shadow Weaving (5 points) - Your Shadow damage spells have a 100% chance to
cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage ...
Shadow Focus - Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spell by
x%
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't 5 points in Shadow Weaving makes
Shadow Focus a waste?

They are two different things, Shadow Focus reduces the chances you get
the dreaded "resists" text, where the target completely resists the
spell. If the spell hits Shadow Weaving increase the damage taken but
if the doesn't hit, ie resisted, Shadow Weaving does nothing for you.
I would regard Shadow Focus as a talent of debatable use. In theory it
sounds good but it's impossible to measure and thus now if it really
makes a difference. I have in my shadow priest.

It is still not clear to me how 'vulnerable' is different than 'resist'.
What does 100% vulnerable mean?

BombayMix

2006-11-13 15:00:52 UTC

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Reach - rank 2/2
Shadow Weaving - rank 5/5

Here is where we may differ. Look at the wording of shadow weaving versus
shadow focus.
Shadow Weaving (5 points) - Your Shadow damage spells have a 100% chance to
cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage ...
Shadow Focus - Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spell by
x%
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't 5 points in Shadow Weaving makes
Shadow Focus a waste?

They are two different things, Shadow Focus reduces the chances you get
the dreaded "resists" text, where the target completely resists the
spell. If the spell hits Shadow Weaving increase the damage taken but
if the doesn't hit, ie resisted, Shadow Weaving does nothing for you.
I would regard Shadow Focus as a talent of debatable use. In theory it
sounds good but it's impossible to measure and thus now if it really
makes a difference. I have in my shadow priest.

It is still not clear to me how 'vulnerable' is different than 'resist'.
What does 100% vulnerable mean?

Let me put it another way, Shadow Weaving increases the damage done by
3% proc-ing 5 times up to 15%.

Shadow Focus reduces the chance the target will resists thus reducing
the damage done.

Say a spell does 100 damage, shadow weaving will increase damage to 103
(on one proc). If the target resists 100% of the spell it does 0
damage. If he resists 50% it does 50 damage.

Snowblade

2006-11-13 15:15:11 UTC

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Reach - rank 2/2
Shadow Weaving - rank 5/5

Here is where we may differ. Look at the wording of shadow weaving versus
shadow focus.
Shadow Weaving (5 points) - Your Shadow damage spells have a 100%
chance
to
cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage ...
Shadow Focus - Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow
spell
by
x%
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't 5 points in Shadow Weaving makes
Shadow Focus a waste?

They are two different things, Shadow Focus reduces the chances you get
the dreaded "resists" text, where the target completely resists the
spell. If the spell hits Shadow Weaving increase the damage taken but
if the doesn't hit, ie resisted, Shadow Weaving does nothing for you.
I would regard Shadow Focus as a talent of debatable use. In theory it
sounds good but it's impossible to measure and thus now if it really
makes a difference. I have in my shadow priest.

It is still not clear to me how 'vulnerable' is different than 'resist'.
What does 100% vulnerable mean?

Let me put it another way, Shadow Weaving increases the damage done by
3% proc-ing 5 times up to 15%.
Shadow Focus reduces the chance the target will resists thus reducing
the damage done.
Say a spell does 100 damage, shadow weaving will increase damage to 103
(on one proc). If the target resists 100% of the spell it does 0
damage. If he resists 50% it does 50 damage.

Yes, that is 'resist', but what does 100% vulnerable mean? Each rank of
Shadow Weaving increases the target's 'vulnerability' starting at 20%. At
Rank 5 the target becomes 100% vulnerable to shadow damage. Excuse me if I
am missing something.

Babe Bridou

2006-11-13 15:19:44 UTC

Post by Snowblade
Yes, that is 'resist', but what does 100% vulnerable mean? Each rank of
Shadow Weaving increases the target's 'vulnerability' starting at 20%. At
Rank 5 the target becomes 100% vulnerable to shadow damage. Excuse me if I
am missing something.

The way I read the tooltip, each rank increases the "chance to become
3% more vulnerable" by 20%, up to 100% "chance to become 3% more
vulnerable". The rank simply changes the average number of spells you
have to cast on the target for it to become 15% vulnerable. At 1/5,
it's 25 spells (20% per spell), at 5/5 it's 5 spells (100% per spell).

It's the same as "+1% crit" and "+1% crit damage".

Urbin

2006-11-13 15:58:22 UTC

Post by Snowblade
am missing something.

That's exactly how it is working on my shadow priest. At best it takes 5/5
spells, often it takes 6 spells, because the debuff is resisted once.

Cheers
Urbin

--
Urbin (60), Dwarven Hunter (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Sunh (59), Nightelven Priest (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Juran (24), Nightelven Druid (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
[FAQ] Get the alt.games.warcraft faq from http://www.ursbeeli.ch/wow [FAQ]

Simon Nejmann

2006-11-13 15:16:23 UTC

Post by Snowblade

Post by BombayMix
They are two different things, Shadow Focus reduces the chances you get
the dreaded "resists" text, where the target completely resists the
spell. If the spell hits Shadow Weaving increase the damage taken but
if the doesn't hit, ie resisted, Shadow Weaving does nothing for you.
I would regard Shadow Focus as a talent of debatable use. In theory it
sounds good but it's impossible to measure and thus now if it really
makes a difference. I have in my shadow priest.

It is still not clear to me how 'vulnerable' is different than 'resist'.
What does 100% vulnerable mean?

Quoting the entire text would help:
**
Shadow Weaving (Rank 5)
Your Shadow damage spells have a 100% chance to cause your target to
be vulnerable to Shadow damage. This vulnerability increases the
Shadow damage dealt to your target by 3% and lasts 15 sec. Stacks up
to 5 times.
**

If you hit a mob with eg. Mind Blast, then in addition to the damage
it also has a chance to get hit with a debuff that adds 3% to all
shadow damage that mob takes. At 5/5 Shadow Weaving that chance is
100%, meaning that all shadow spells you throw at a mob will proc this
3% extra damage debuff.

However, the debuff itself can be resisted so it is still not a
completely guaranteed thing. Also, the debuff stacks up to 5 times
(15% extra damage total) and lasts 15 seconds - the timer gets reset
to 15 seconds every time the mob gets hit with a new debuff though,
even if it already has a stack of 5.

In case you care, then this is what Shadow Weaving makes your spells
hit the mob with: http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=15258

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

Urbin

2006-11-13 15:56:59 UTC

Post by Snowblade
Shadow Reach - rank 2/2
Shadow Weaving - rank 5/5

Here is where we may differ. Look at the wording of shadow weaving
versus shadow focus.
Shadow Weaving (5 points) - Your Shadow damage spells have a 100%
chance to cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage ...
Shadow Focus - Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spell
by x%
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't 5 points in Shadow Weaving makes
Shadow Focus a waste?

They are two different things, Shadow Focus reduces the chances you get
the dreaded "resists" text, where the target completely resists the
spell. If the spell hits Shadow Weaving increase the damage taken but
if the doesn't hit, ie resisted, Shadow Weaving does nothing for you.
I would regard Shadow Focus as a talent of debatable use. In theory it
sounds good but it's impossible to measure and thus now if it really
makes a difference. I have in my shadow priest.

It is still not clear to me how 'vulnerable' is different than 'resist'.
What does 100% vulnerable mean?

What it means - in my experience - is:
Shadow Weaving: 0/5 - your target will never get the "vulnerability buff"
Shadow Waeving: 1/5 - you get a 20% chance that the "vuln buff" is cast on
the target. the target still does a resistance check on the debuff
Shadow Weaving: 5/5 - you get a 100% chance of casting the "vuln buff", but
the resistance check is still performed.

I often see
700 damge (Mind blast)
Resisted Shadow Weaving

From this I assume that there are two resistance checks, the first for my
mind blast, if that is unresisted, a second check is done for the debuff.

In this contect, it makes sense that Shadow Focus would not only lower the
reists rates to the mind blast (or whatever else you prefer) *and* the
shadow vulnerability debuff.

Don't know if this stays the same with TBC, this data comes from the current
life system.

Cheers
Urbin

Urbin

2006-11-13 07:27:38 UTC

Post by Snowblade
In the BC Beta, I have been experimenting with the new Vampiric Touch (VT)
talent. Here are some things I found that may interest you shadow priests

Thanks Snowblade, this sounds great. I am currently level 59.6 and have a
13 disc/37 shadow build. I am very much looking forward to the BC shadow
build based on what you wrote.

Cheers
Sunh

j***@hexduxhmp.org

2006-11-13 15:23:54 UTC

Post by Snowblade
Now the first thing to notice is VT coupled with Mind Fray tends to obsolete

Is this a typo for "Mind Flay"?

Urbin

2006-11-13 15:59:49 UTC

Post by j***@hexduxhmp.org

Post by Snowblade
Now the first thing to notice is VT coupled with Mind Fray tends to obsolete

Is this a typo for "Mind Flay"?

He is compensating for the fact that all tooltips were written by some Blizz
employee of asien descent who therefore must have misspellt the spell that
was intended to be called "Mind Fray" :)

gd&r
Urbin

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