IMPROVED Revenged: At What Point is it Truly Useless?

[Orion Ryder]

I used to rely a lot on this talent in my build and truly loved having
it and seeing a mob get stunned and quite often I might add.

I have respecced my tank twice over the last few months. The prior
respecc I kept the Improved Revenge despite seeing al lot of tankign
guides not show it in the specs and several tanks that I know not
having it.

I recently did a respec based more on the guides that I have been
reading and in this respec I did not bother with Improved Revenge. Now
its obvious that it is useless against bosses. Anyway why would I need
it against bosses. My warrior tank tends to handle single big bosses
well, provided I ahve the fight mechanics down. (Shoot me in the foot
for not realizing that with melee DPS on the 3rd boss in Shadow Labs a
slow kite does nto work well as opposed to having a bunch of ranged
DPSers. ARGH!!)

Anyway about Improved Revenge, I have a feeling I used to rely on it a
lot more than I thought. It probably was stunning and giving me a
chance to get in more threat when I was tankign two targets. Maybe I
need to take it back and dump it at a later point in the game.

Something tells me that there are even going to be trash mobs in the
later dungeons that are immune to the stun of Improved Revenge. These
things I need to find out.

My warrior is still running 70s dungeons and has done 1 heroic and 1/3
of another one. I finally have a itinerary laid out for getting him a
little bit better geared. There are even some group quest chains he
can do that will net him a few upgrades. With the right group in the
right heroic dungeon he might be able to handle the scenery but there
are not any immediate needs for badges at this point so I probably
don't even have to send him in to a heroic at this point in time
except other than for excitement and curiosity and comraderie.

So I am serisouly thinking of taking that Improved Revenge back but
will have to decide what to dump. Several of the guides had
recommended speccing with Improved TC for that extra mitigation
purpose but maybe I don't really need that at this point in time -
maybe the Improved Revenge will come in handy more at this point in
time.

I'll have to take this into consideration with my recent thoughts on
trying to create the ultimate macro for my tank to tackle two mobs.

Thanks for ay ideas that anyone might present on this.

Orion

[Kimbelyn]

Post by Orion Ryder
Something tells me that there are even going to be trash mobs in the
later dungeons that are immune to the stun of Improved Revenge. These
things I need to find out.

my warrior is 62, specced full protection including imp revenge. to be
honest, i absolutely love this talent. i solo in defensive stance with a
1h/shield and constantly use shield slam, heroic strike, revenge, and
concussive blow to fight my way through mobs. the stun of revenge and
concussive blow gives you the chance to kill them while taking minimal
damage.

as far as tanking with it, i dont notice or pay attention to it in
instances all that much. all my focus is keeping the mobs on me and
picking up strays. i will use concussive blow when able to catch a
runner if he resists a taunt to give taunt the chance to be ready for
use again.

there will always been some mobs somewhere immune to cc of any kind,
however, and this includes the stun of imp revenge.

hth! :)

[Frank E]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:39:01 -0800 (PST), Orion Ryder

Post by Orion Ryder
So I am serisouly thinking of taking that Improved Revenge back but
will have to decide what to dump. Several of the guides had
recommended speccing with Improved TC for that extra mitigation
purpose but maybe I don't really need that at this point in time -
maybe the Improved Revenge will come in handy more at this point in
time.

Tanks I know love improved Revenge even for heroics so I'd say that
it's useful for pretty much everything other than raiding. My warrior
will hit 70 this week end so I don't speak from personal experience
there.

As for improved TC, if I had to rank the top tanking talents I'd put
it right up there with Defiance. No tank build should ever be without
it. It gives you double(?) the damage for a TC, which means double the
agro on 4 mobs. Spamming it every 10 seconds means you never have to
worry about your healer getting agro.

Rgds, Frank

[evankimori]

*snip*

Personally, as a tank myself for Heroics-which I've tanked nearly all
of them except Arc and SH, I've never found a reason for Imp. Rev.
Now, I use Revenge as often as it's up and yes: you are correct in
saying that quite a few mobs ARE immune to it. E.g. the Mech Wreckers,
the Peacekeepers and Arcane Guardians and quite a few mobs in a few
other instances. So basically, for me: the only time it did come in
handy was against casters with constant casts but as game AI goes:
once there's someone in melee range with full aggro, the mob will
quicker engage in hand-to-hand and cast the occasional spell. E.g the
Astromages and the other that throw Solarburn. So they're easilt
defeated by a well timed Shield Bash, Spell Reflect or Concussive
Blow.

For a raw PVE aspect: like grinding etc I can see a use, esp. if you
solo some quests as prot and whatnot, a proc can save you a few
attacks, HP and let you get in a few cheapshots on a mob. Same goes
for PVP. A prot warrior is a Rogue's nightmare since you take a while
to go down. Common sense dictates when you can use it really.

Now, for me personally: I'm full mitigation spec on my warrior and
I've found a better way to use my talent points. From being Imp Rev
spec, I've noticed that the proc rate on it is relatively slow,
especially when using sword and board since you can only proc it on a
single Rev swing with a 1H, ONLY in Def stance as compared to dual
wield and any other stance. And seriously: who dual wields for DPS in
Def. stance anyway? Unless it's an aggro sensitive fight where you
have to be an OT and generate enough threat directly behind the MT to
pick up the mob and dump your offhand for a shield when the time
comes. E.g. 2 tanks on the Netherspite fight.

My spec so far is: http://tinyurl.com/ywlvc2 - made it shorter to save
eye space.

If you're having trouble grabbing two mobs, line up a key shortcut for
your main abilities to be the first 4 buttons on your bars. For me:
1-Revenge
2-Devastate
3-Shield Bash
4-Shield Slam
5-Shield Reflect
Q-Shield Block
E-Double tank trinket activation macro.

Try opening up with a Revenge spam on both mobs & tabbing between and
lighting each one up. Throw in a Demo Shout and Thunderclap (AWAY from
CC mobs!) and you should have their infinite attention as long as you
lay on the Shield Slam and Bask between them whenever it's up.

Remember: REVENGE TAKES PRIORITY. It's the highest threat generator
you have so if it's up: use it. It WILL expire if it remains unused.

For me: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/ remains
my Bible on any tanking questions. Give it a read and see if it
doesn't clear up a few things.

[chocolatemalt]

In article

Post by evankimori
Personally, as a tank myself for Heroics-which I've tanked nearly all
of them except Arc and SH, I've never found a reason for Imp. Rev.
Now, I use Revenge as often as it's up and yes: you are correct in
saying that quite a few mobs ARE immune to it. E.g. the Mech Wreckers,
the Peacekeepers and Arcane Guardians and quite a few mobs in a few
other instances. So basically, for me: the only time it did come in
once there's someone in melee range with full aggro, the mob will
quicker engage in hand-to-hand and cast the occasional spell. E.g the
Astromages and the other that throw Solarburn. So they're easilt
defeated by a well timed Shield Bash, Spell Reflect or Concussive
Blow.

Disagree, but maybe I've just had better luck with Revenge stuns.
Generally 80% or more of heroic mobs are stunnable, full Imp Revenge
procs 45% of the time when Revenge hits, and Revenge (with moderately
good gear) will be popping up every 5-10 seconds. On average, that
means a 3-second stun every 15 seconds or so, which matches my
experience. A stunned mob also cannot block, dodge, or parry so it's an
awesome time to get a near-guaranteed Shield Slam in. A stunned mob
also can't heal, aoe, run after the healer, or run away.

The limits on the other fill-ins that you mention are that Shield Bash
shuts down only one school of magic, can miss, and has a significant
cooldown. Spell Reflect requires a chunk of rage and doesn't work
against aoe (or even many direct-attack spells... lovely logic there).
Concussive Blow is fantastic but has a very long cooldown. Getting free
Revenge stuns left and right is a huge boost.

Post by evankimori
Remember: REVENGE TAKES PRIORITY. It's the highest threat generator
you have so if it's up: use it. It WILL expire if it remains unused.

Pretty much always true, except in infinite-rage situations where you'll
want to favor Shield Slam for better TPS.

Post by evankimori
For me: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/ remains
my Bible on any tanking questions. Give it a read and see if it
doesn't clear up a few things.

Agreed, that's the best info I've seen too.

[chocolatemalt]

In article

Post by Orion Ryder
I used to rely a lot on this talent in my build and truly loved having
it and seeing a mob get stunned and quite often I might add.
I have respecced my tank twice over the last few months. The prior
respecc I kept the Improved Revenge despite seeing al lot of tankign
guides not show it in the specs and several tanks that I know not
having it.
I recently did a respec based more on the guides that I have been
reading and in this respec I did not bother with Improved Revenge. Now
its obvious that it is useless against bosses. Anyway why would I need
it against bosses. My warrior tank tends to handle single big bosses
well, provided I ahve the fight mechanics down. (Shoot me in the foot
for not realizing that with melee DPS on the 3rd boss in Shadow Labs a
slow kite does nto work well as opposed to having a bunch of ranged
DPSers. ARGH!!)
Anyway about Improved Revenge, I have a feeling I used to rely on it a
lot more than I thought. It probably was stunning and giving me a
chance to get in more threat when I was tankign two targets. Maybe I
need to take it back and dump it at a later point in the game.
Something tells me that there are even going to be trash mobs in the
later dungeons that are immune to the stun of Improved Revenge. These
things I need to find out.
My warrior is still running 70s dungeons and has done 1 heroic and 1/3
of another one. I finally have a itinerary laid out for getting him a
little bit better geared. There are even some group quest chains he
can do that will net him a few upgrades. With the right group in the
right heroic dungeon he might be able to handle the scenery but there
are not any immediate needs for badges at this point so I probably
don't even have to send him in to a heroic at this point in time
except other than for excitement and curiosity and comraderie.
So I am serisouly thinking of taking that Improved Revenge back but
will have to decide what to dump. Several of the guides had
recommended speccing with Improved TC for that extra mitigation
purpose but maybe I don't really need that at this point in time -
maybe the Improved Revenge will come in handy more at this point in
time.
I'll have to take this into consideration with my recent thoughts on
trying to create the ultimate macro for my tank to tackle two mobs.
Thanks for ay ideas that anyone might present on this.

You nailed it -- Imp Revenge was helping you a ton! For heroics and
even much of Karazhan, the trash mobs are the problem. They hit hard
and you need to keep them under control. The majority of them are
vulnerable to stuns, so Imp Revenge is proccing all the time.

What's more, as your gear improves and you get more dodge, parry, and
block, you won't really need Shield Block's help to proc a Revenge --
it'll be up constantly. So Imp Revenge becomes even more valuable with
better gear.

Also consider Imp Shield Bash for similar reasons -- the mobs in heroics
are vulnerable to silence, and you very often can use Shield Bash
prophylactically to pull back a caster that isn't casting yet, or has
multiple schools of magic and will just switch to another one if you use
the unimproved version.

Once you become a raid tank for Gruul, Mag, and beyond, these talents
become near-useless since all the mobs become immune to stuns and
silences. And the bosses are now the hard part (unlike heroics) so
you'll have to spec specifically for the boss fights anyway -- trade Imp
Revenge and Shield Bash for Imp Defensive Stance and Imp Shield Wall,
perhaps.

Oh, and regarding Imp Thunderclap, you absolutely need it. Even in
post-Kara raid tanking *some* tank must have this talent. It's a
further 10% nerf on incoming melee damage which is huge. For heroic
trash, this talent is the key to keeping the mobs on you, hitting less
hard, and off the healer. The majority of viable tank specs are some
version of 8/5/48, which includes imp Thunderclap. Some folks go
11/5/45 to pick up Imp HS but I think it's worthless since it's used
only in infinite-rage situations anyway.