good gear without raiding?

Post by Rich K
Is this possible? I can understand the ethos of rewarding players for
taking part in successful raids but if you don't have the necessary time
free to take part is there any stuff worth having as a result of solo
questing?
Or should I just dump the game come 60 as it effectively ends for solo
players?

You have questions that don't necessarily relate to each other.

As far as the gear; Kaliban has worked hard to provide a list of solo, small
guild, or PUG attainable gear at http://www.wow-loot.com/

As far as soloing after 60, it just depends what you view the rewards as.
You won't be gaining XP or talents any more, but there are plenty of 50+
level quest chains available throughout the world, as well as 5-man
dungeons/instances.

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Genius Jones

2005-11-21 20:22:20 UTC

I think the answer to your question is Battlegrounds.

Regards,
GJ

gaf1234567890

2005-11-21 20:45:02 UTC

Post by Genius Jones
I think the answer to your question is Battlegrounds.

Agreed.

At 60, the first thing you try to get is your Blue Set (Dreadmist,
Magisters, Shadowcraft, Beaststalker, etc). These come from Stratholme,
Scholomance, LBRS and BRD, which technically aren't "Raid" Instances.
But there are 3 alternatives to even running those dungeons:

1) The Auction House. Every one of the Blue Sets has at least 2 items
that are Bind On Equip, and always available for purchase on the AH.
You can get these just by doing anything in the game that makes money.

2) Professions. The Blue Sets generally have high level craftable items
that are equivalent. For instance, for Cloth armor, there's the
Mooncloth items. And these are also available on the AH (see #1).

3) PvP / Battlegrounds. Getting Honored in each of the Battlegrounds
(AV, WSG, AB) and getting Rank 5 Honor gives you quite a few Blue items
that are just as good as the Sets, depending on class. This is not very
hard to do. I got Honored with AV in about 10 trips. And after Honored,
the rewards get even better with Revered and Exalted.

So, the bottom line is that you can get pretty good gear from Grinding,
Making Money (trading on the AH), Crafting, or playing in the
Battlegrounds. All of these are easy to do "solo", that is, without
being part of a guild or in dribs and drabs whenever you want.

It's just a function of time.

Rich K

2005-11-21 22:05:57 UTC

On 21 Nov 2005 12:45:02 -0800, gaf1234567890 annoyed egg-heads everywhere

Post by gaf1234567890
3) PvP / Battlegrounds. Getting Honored in each of the Battlegrounds
(AV, WSG, AB) and getting Rank 5 Honor gives you quite a few Blue items
that are just as good as the Sets, depending on class. This is not very
hard to do. I got Honored with AV in about 10 trips. And after Honored,
the rewards get even better with Revered and Exalted.

But doesn't this stuff vanish if you stop doing battlegrounds for any
length of time? Like if your status goes down you lose the right to wear
the stuff?

John Gordon

2005-11-21 22:11:09 UTC

Post by Rich K
But doesn't this stuff vanish if you stop doing battlegrounds for any
length of time? Like if your status goes down you lose the right to wear
the stuff?

No. That used to be true, but not anymore. Once you buy it, you can
use it forever.

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
***@panix.com

Genius Jones

2005-11-21 22:21:46 UTC

Post by John Gordon

Post by Rich K
But doesn't this stuff vanish if you stop doing battlegrounds for any
length of time? Like if your status goes down you lose the right to wear
the stuff?

No. That used to be true, but not anymore. Once you buy it, you can
use it forever.
--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."

When did that change? My understanding is that items obtained through
honor rewards would go red and unequip if your rank fell below the
items rank. Unfortunately I don't have any honor items to test that on.

Regards,
GJ

Hornet

2005-11-21 22:36:49 UTC

The items are really good. To maintain rank 14 costs you 500k+ cp a
week on my server. It just wouldn't work if they made you put in 3
months(minimum) of work for an item that lasts 3 weeks, or if only 1.4%
of players were allowed to use these items at any given time.
Basically, if they went red, it would be impossible to use these items
for PvE progression because you have to keep pvping every waking

You get your rank 14, you can have fun again and stop grinding. All of
the rank 14's on my server have a dedicated guild behind them, shared
the account to play it as close to 24/7 as possible, and after each
person makes rank 14, they bow out for the next selected person.

ÐïÅßö¥ø§©

2005-11-21 22:45:26 UTC

Post by Genius Jones
When did that change? My understanding is that items obtained through
honor rewards would go red and unequip if your rank fell below the
items rank. Unfortunately I don't have any honor items to test that on.

Once you buy it even if you lose a rank you can still use whatever you had
bought. Happened to me when I lost a rank after not bg'ing for a week. I
was worried I wouldn't be able to use my rank specific items but it didn't
effect them at all.

gaf1234567890

2005-11-22 00:25:46 UTC

Post by Genius Jones

Post by John Gordon

Post by Rich K
But doesn't this stuff vanish if you stop doing battlegrounds for any
length of time? Like if your status goes down you lose the right to wear
the stuff?

No. That used to be true, but not anymore. Once you buy it, you can
use it forever.

First of all, Honor Rewards and Battleground items are *NOT* earned the
same way. To get Honor gear, you just have to get the minimum rank, and
then you can buy the items. It doesn't matter if you lose the rank
after that. You still keep the gear (for at least 3 patches?). But it
does become progressively harder to get the next Rank. But you also
don't need anywhere near Rank 14 to get a few good Blue items. I'm only
Rank 5 and I have the Blue Cape.

BG items you get from building up Reputation with the Faction that
matches that BG. For example Frostwolf Faction for AV (Horde), and
Defiler Faction for AB (Horde). This just goes one way, UP. Like all
Reputation in the game you earn it like XP, at your own pace. Earning
AV faction is actually the easiest, and most people can reasonably
expect to get Exalted eventually. This also lets you buy the epic mount
for the lowest price in the game (640g ??)

Uwe Reithuber

2005-11-23 09:11:16 UTC

Post by gaf1234567890

Post by Genius Jones

Post by John Gordon

Post by Rich K
But doesn't this stuff vanish if you stop doing battlegrounds for any
length of time? Like if your status goes down you lose the right to wear
the stuff?

No. That used to be true, but not anymore. Once you buy it, you can
use it forever.

The blue Cape is with rank 2.

Post by gaf1234567890
BG items you get from building up Reputation with the Faction that
matches that BG. For example Frostwolf Faction for AV (Horde), and
Defiler Faction for AB (Horde). This just goes one way, UP. Like all
Reputation in the game you earn it like XP, at your own pace. Earning
AV faction is actually the easiest, and most people can reasonably
expect to get Exalted eventually. This also lets you buy the epic mount
for the lowest price in the game (640g ??)

waves
Uwe

David Carson

2005-11-22 10:24:14 UTC

Post by Genius Jones

Post by John Gordon
No. That used to be true, but not anymore. Once you buy it, you can
use it forever.

It changed the very first patch after the one that introduced the honor
system rewards, iirc.

Cheers!
David...

David Collantes

2005-11-23 18:43:20 UTC

How could you get AV honored on 10 trips? I have more than 40 trips, I
am just friendly. Just wondering...

Hornet

2005-11-21 20:25:59 UTC

Well if you're after solo stuff, yeah the game effectively ends at 60.
There's still a fair number of quests you can solo, but the best stuff
definitely comes from 5 man instances and higher. That doesn't mean the
game is over though. If you really like the solo stuff, roll a
different class, and different faction. The game between human and
night-elf is quite different up to lvl 30. Getting exalted in AV/AB
will give you some really nice rewards, likewise for hitting rank 12-14
in PvP.

Just out of curiosity, what do you have against raiding? Why does your
gear matter if you're just doing solo play?

gaf1234567890

2005-11-21 21:27:48 UTC

Post by Hornet
Just out of curiosity, what do you have against raiding? Why does your
gear matter if you're just doing solo play?

This is an excelent point.

You definitely don't need Purple gear to grind anywhere in the game.
You don't need Purple gear to solo Scarlet Monastary, etc.
You don't Purple gear to scrap in BG's.
You don't need Purple gear to farm for mats for professions.
You don't need Purple gear to do the new quests in Silithus.

If all you like to do is quest solo, then you are better off playing an
Alt from the other faction up to L40 until the expansion comes out, or
until a patch open up a new zone. This is actually quite enjoyable, as
the first 20 levels at least are brand new. And if you play a new class
as well, it's even more different.

Vertoobli

2005-11-22 15:58:09 UTC

Post by Hornet
Well if you're after solo stuff, yeah the game effectively ends at 60.
There's still a fair number of quests you can solo, but the best stuff
definitely comes from 5 man instances and higher. That doesn't mean the
game is over though. If you really like the solo stuff, roll a
different class, and different faction. The game between human and
night-elf is quite different up to lvl 30. Getting exalted in AV/AB
will give you some really nice rewards, likewise for hitting rank 12-14
in PvP.
Just out of curiosity, what do you have against raiding? Why does your
gear matter if you're just doing solo play?

I'd figure its for the survivability of the char. I'm not keen on
Raiding either.

Frank E

2005-11-22 16:59:24 UTC

Post by Hornet
Just out of curiosity, what do you have against raiding? Why does your
gear matter if you're just doing solo play?

Just speaking for me personally, raiding bores me so once my group
finishes all the instances, it will be effectively game over and time
to move on to something else.

Why does gear matter, for the same reason it matters to anyone else.
Once you hit 60, the only way to advance your character is through
gear. It doesn't have to be Raid caliber loot but there has to be some
goal for me to stay interested and at lvl 60, the only goal is gear.

Rgds, Frank

Yelps

2005-11-23 04:45:05 UTC

Post by Frank E

Post by Hornet
Just out of curiosity, what do you have against raiding? Why does your
gear matter if you're just doing solo play?

Just speaking for me personally, raiding bores me so once my group
finishes all the instances, it will be effectively game over and time
to move on to something else.
Why does gear matter, for the same reason it matters to anyone else.
Once you hit 60, the only way to advance your character is through
gear. It doesn't have to be Raid caliber loot but there has to be some
goal for me to stay interested and at lvl 60, the only goal is gear.
Rgds, Frank

Today people can buy almost anything at the AH. Gear uis not really the
deal. adn beside the game is already chaning to a 70 lvl soon. The
technology of the game is supuerb and is revolutionary. The model they are
c4reasting now is state of the art, cutting egde stuff and tech is going to
keep improving so if this sort of thing is entertaining to us then we have a
lot more to look forward to. I think Blizzard is fundamentally committed to
listening to people and people have to be patient, this stuff takes time
this is really high end, cutting age technology and art as well. In the
menatime I dont want to short change myself---i am paying for it.

dc

s***@rocketmail.com

2005-11-21 21:03:05 UTC

Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Thomas Nellemann Petersen

2005-11-21 21:34:25 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

That's the same thing as saying it also ends at level 1 for raiders and
group players if they don't role play.

If all the soloers and small group players left mmorpgs it would take a huge
chunk of revenue away and that's why there's tons of solo content in all
mmorpgs.

Rastus

2005-11-22 06:05:58 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.

Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.

Yelps

2005-11-22 06:13:24 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes one can solo all the way to 60, with no big deal----but you aren't
really playing the "game," doing so. The Game has the instances and except
for the lowest instances, you cannot solo them, even at 60 and kill the
big bosses. The Endgame(s) require 40 person teams all planned out
carefully. So what you are saying is placing the emphasis on lvling only.
Just getting to 60 is not the endgame.

The game really begins at 60.

dc

Yelps

2005-11-22 06:22:48 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes one can solo all the way to 60, with no big deal----but you aren't
really playing the "game," doing so. The Game has the instances and
except for the lowest instances, you cannot solo them, even at 60 and
kill the big bosses. The Endgame(s) require 40 person teams all planned
out carefully. So what you are saying is placing the emphasis on lvling
only. Just getting to 60 is not the endgame.
The game really begins at 60.
dc

I should also add that you can also become exaulted with most all the
factions and earn the highest BG rank withever getting into the Endgame, but
really the Endgame, which is going to be continued through the upcoming lvl
70, all requires large teams and much pracice and experience.

dc

David HARRISON

2005-11-22 06:35:33 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You play all the way to 60 and you aren't playing the game? Did you really
just say that?

The 40 player raid content in WoW is a serious turnoff to a very large
number of players. I ran MC a few times when our guild reached that level
back in march and that was more than enough for me. Raiding is one of the
most boring things this game has to offer. With a very few exceptions,
people go there ONLY for the Purple. If there was no Purple to be had, or
it could be achieved some other way in comparable time invested, then 40
player raid instances would be dead. Wonder why.

For a lot of people, this game absolutely ends at 60. I stayed on for
several months and had a lot of fun PvPing (until BG's and the honour
system killed that off), and a lot of fun doing stealth runs in instances
(rogue), or two-three manning instances like LBRS,BRD,scholo etc. 5 man
UBRS runs are so much more fun than the insult to players that MC is.

Hope this helps,

Yelps

2005-11-22 06:50:52 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You play all the way to 60 and you aren't playing the game? Did you really
just say that?
The 40 player raid content in WoW is a serious turnoff to a very large
number of players. I ran MC a few times when our guild reached that level
back in march and that was more than enough for me. Raiding is one of the
most boring things this game has to offer. With a very few exceptions,
people go there ONLY for the Purple. If there was no Purple to be had, or
it could be achieved some other way in comparable time invested, then 40
player raid instances would be dead. Wonder why.
For a lot of people, this game absolutely ends at 60. I stayed on for
several months and had a lot of fun PvPing (until BG's and the honour
system killed that off), and a lot of fun doing stealth runs in instances
(rogue), or two-three manning instances like LBRS,BRD,scholo etc. 5 man
UBRS runs are so much more fun than the insult to players that MC is.
Hope this helps,

Of course the word "game" includes all of WOW but on a continuum, there is
the "Endgame." and the skill and practice required to do it properly. Sure
many people are after "purples" like Rabid dogs, but the real challenge is
the difficulty of these Instances. How you could call them 'boring," is
strange. Sure if you'd done it too many times, then like anything in the
game it could become boringand repetative. BG can be a lot of fun but there
too teamwork and learning teamwork is essential and probably the biggest
challenge of all.

dc

Yelps

2005-11-22 08:07:55 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You play all the way to 60 and you aren't playing the game? Did you really
just say that?
The 40 player raid content in WoW is a serious turnoff to a very large
number of players. I ran MC a few times when our guild reached that level
back in march and that was more than enough for me. Raiding is one of the
most boring things this game has to offer. With a very few exceptions,
people go there ONLY for the Purple. If there was no Purple to be had, or
it could be achieved some other way in comparable time invested, then 40
player raid instances would be dead. Wonder why.
For a lot of people, this game absolutely ends at 60. I stayed on for
several months and had a lot of fun PvPing (until BG's and the honour
system killed that off), and a lot of fun doing stealth runs in instances
(rogue), or two-three manning instances like LBRS,BRD,scholo etc. 5 man
UBRS runs are so much more fun than the insult to players that MC is.
Hope this helps,

Of course the word "game" includes all of WOW but on a continuum, there is
the "Endgame." and the skill and practice required to do it properly.
Sure many people are after "purples" like Rabid dogs, but the real
challenge is the difficulty of these Instances. How you could call them
'boring," is strange. Sure if you'd done it too many times, then like
anything in the game it could become boringand repetative. BG can be a
lot of fun but there too teamwork and learning teamwork is essential and
probably the biggest challenge of all.
dc

Grinding for gold, doing professions diligently and buying at the AH ,or
doing lots of BG, are also ways to still get "purples." But the "game"
overall, is geared to doing quests and instances and then the Endgame. If
Wow was made as a movie, the "end" as it stands now, would be the last
Endgame Quests/Instamces requiring lv 60.

dc

dc

David HARRISON

2005-11-22 08:14:29 UTC

Post by Yelps
Of course the word "game" includes all of WOW but on a continuum, there is
the "Endgame." and the skill and practice required to do it properly. Sure
many people are after "purples" like Rabid dogs, but the real challenge is
the difficulty of these Instances. How you could call them 'boring," is
strange. Sure if you'd done it too many times, then like anything in the
game it could become boringand repetative. BG can be a lot of fun but there
too teamwork and learning teamwork is essential and probably the biggest
challenge of all.
dc

Yes I'm familiar the with the "Endgame" that WoW has. I actually feel the
term is apt, because in my opinion a lot of the game ends at this point.

MC is boring for the majority of players participating at an individual
skill level. The vast bulk of the skills, talents and strategies that
you've spent 60 levels learning and refining are simply gone.

What 40 player raids are about is fooling demi-god level entities into
attacking the one player that most resembles a solid block of steel while
all the squishy healers chain heal it and everyone else is wailing on
them. Demi-god of stupidity? I can handle it when lesser mobs and bosses
in 5 man instances are forced to go toe to toe with a warrior who's in
their face and not letting them get past them. Why should Ragnaros be so
collossaly stupid so as to not go for the healers. It's an insult to both
the lore of the game and also to the players.

It might be fun for the one or two raid leaders who get off on hitting
their "Start DPS!" or "Stop DPS!" macros at the times they read up on one
of the "uber" guilds websites maybe. Maybe the MT likes to feel as though
they are somehow the center of attention.

In any case, I do recognise that some people like that sort of stuff, more
power to them I say, but to say that that sort of mind-deadening stuff is
where the game truly starts is ludicrous.

Rene

2005-11-22 09:24:06 UTC

Post by Yelps
Of course the word "game" includes all of WOW but on a continuum, there
is the "Endgame." and the skill and practice required to do it
properly. Sure many people are after "purples" like Rabid dogs, but
the real challenge is the difficulty of these Instances. How you could
call them 'boring," is strange. Sure if you'd done it too many times,
then like anything in the game it could become boringand repetative.
BG can be a lot of fun but there too teamwork and learning teamwork is
essential and probably the biggest challenge of all.
dc

Yes, however other skills and other forms of teamwork need to be learned
and trained. It is simply completely different than anything before. It
needs other tactics, it needs other approaches. And 40 people (at least at
the start).

The endgame is the only thing that's fun for my more than 3 months level 60
priest. Strath, Scholo, UBRS is just too damn boring for us after the
novelty wears off. DM 5 man doesn't help long enough.

I had 2 choices playing this char longer: PVP or PVE endgame. I got the
chance to test-run MC some months ago. I didn't knew back then wheter I'm
going to like it or not. But I went and had a blast and I'm still having
one. It's the best thing that could have happend - for me. While PVP is
also fun, the majority of players on my realm that participates in the
realm-forum is childishly bickering amongst themselves about unfairness and
whatever, which is a real turn off for me. The PVP-community behaves as if
the majority consists of CS-refugee kids. And I just can't stand that.

Post by David HARRISON
What 40 player raids are about is fooling demi-god level entities into
attacking the one player that most resembles a solid block of steel while
all the squishy healers chain heal it and everyone else is wailing on
them. Demi-god of stupidity? I can handle it when lesser mobs and bosses
in 5 man instances are forced to go toe to toe with a warrior who's in
their face and not letting them get past them. Why should Ragnaros be so
collossaly stupid so as to not go for the healers. It's an insult to both
the lore of the game and also to the players.

Blizzard said themselves at the blizzcon, that of course they could simply
target healers first. But it's just not fun. There are, however, later much
more random boss fights, notably in BWL, though Shazzrah in MC is still
quite chaotic due to the random nature of the encounter.

Post by David HARRISON
It might be fun for the one or two raid leaders who get off on hitting
their "Start DPS!" or "Stop DPS!" macros at the times they read up on one
of the "uber" guilds websites maybe. Maybe the MT likes to feel as though
they are somehow the center of attention.
In any case, I do recognise that some people like that sort of stuff,
more power to them I say, but to say that that sort of mind-deadening
stuff is where the game truly starts is ludicrous.

I do like it. It's very challenging (BWL now, that we clear MC easily).
Group dynamics is great. The feeling of having overcome a hard encounter
for the first time is worth all the time invested there with 39 other
people you've learnt to know. Who've been there, failing, learning, trying
to adapt (you can read all the other guild's tactics that you want, it
always needs to be adapted to your group's playstyle and configuration).

If your definition of fun in this game requires you to be the center of
attention or the one hero (or one of the five heroes), then yes, the
endgame is probably a big disappointment. Then again, a MMORGP is probably
the wrong choice in genre anyhow, IMHO. It's called massively multiplayer
for a certain reason.

CU

René

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

Yelps

2005-11-22 09:32:58 UTC

Post by Yelps
Of course the word "game" includes all of WOW but on a continuum, there
is the "Endgame." and the skill and practice required to do it
properly. Sure many people are after "purples" like Rabid dogs, but
the real challenge is the difficulty of these Instances. How you could
call them 'boring," is strange. Sure if you'd done it too many times,
then like anything in the game it could become boringand repetative.
BG can be a lot of fun but there too teamwork and learning teamwork is
essential and probably the biggest challenge of all.
dc

Yes, however other skills and other forms of teamwork need to be learned
and trained. It is simply completely different than anything before. It
needs other tactics, it needs other approaches. And 40 people (at least at
the start).
The endgame is the only thing that's fun for my more than 3 months level 60
priest. Strath, Scholo, UBRS is just too damn boring for us after the
novelty wears off. DM 5 man doesn't help long enough.
I had 2 choices playing this char longer: PVP or PVE endgame. I got the
chance to test-run MC some months ago. I didn't knew back then wheter I'm
going to like it or not. But I went and had a blast and I'm still having
one. It's the best thing that could have happend - for me. While PVP is
also fun, the majority of players on my realm that participates in the
realm-forum is childishly bickering amongst themselves about unfairness and
whatever, which is a real turn off for me. The PVP-community behaves as if
the majority consists of CS-refugee kids. And I just can't stand that.

I do like it. It's very challenging (BWL now, that we clear MC easily).
Group dynamics is great. The feeling of having overcome a hard encounter
for the first time is worth all the time invested there with 39 other
people you've learnt to know. Who've been there, failing, learning, trying
to adapt (you can read all the other guild's tactics that you want, it
always needs to be adapted to your group's playstyle and configuration).
If your definition of fun in this game requires you to be the center of
attention or the one hero (or one of the five heroes), then yes, the
endgame is probably a big disappointment. Then again, a MMORGP is probably
the wrong choice in genre anyhow, IMHO. It's called massively multiplayer
for a certain reason.
CU
René

Exactly.

For me I want to extend the fun and novelty as long as I can sustain it. I
felt kind sad when I had finished Diablo2 and I wished it would just go on
and on with new novelty.

Although I started a character on a new RP server, I was disapointed when I
saw that people werent doing strict RP, which I can see would open up all
kinds of new possibilities to sustain interest and something I have never
done before, because it would involves so much personal creativity.

dc

Christian Stauffer

2005-11-22 09:37:52 UTC

Post by Rene
The endgame is the only thing that's fun for my more than 3 months level 60
priest. Strath, Scholo, UBRS is just too damn boring for us after the
novelty wears off. DM 5 man doesn't help long enough.

Do UBRS 5 man. DM 2 man. Solo Maraudon. There's always a challenge if you
search it. While I agree with your whole post, I also have to admit that
the current endgame instances put the individual totally aside. Yes, it is
new & interesting that the coordination of 40 people suddenly is the most
important thing, but for the individual (especially for those who aren't
involved in planning/coordination) it can be disappointing.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (22) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]

Rene

2005-11-22 10:51:08 UTC

Post by Rene
The endgame is the only thing that's fun for my more than 3 months
level 60 priest. Strath, Scholo, UBRS is just too damn boring for us
after the novelty wears off. DM 5 man doesn't help long enough.

Do UBRS 5 man. DM 2 man. Solo Maraudon. There's always a challenge if you
search it. While I agree with your whole post, I also have to admit that

I did solo Maraudon once. Got to her easily, then died. Might have a chance
now as disc/holy, don't know. But the point is, I can also limit myself to
not cast any spell above rank 3 or so. It doesn't change a thing that I
cripple myself or the group cripples itself. It will be harder, yes. It
will be more challenging, yes. But unnecessarily so. This is like grinding
for the frostsaber mounts, in my opinion. It can be done, it takes a lot of
effort but in the end, it isn't any progress at all in my book.

I might look into that when I'm through BWL, but that is still a loooong
way off. BWL is where my fun lies in the moment. It's hard. We die a lot.
We get completely overwhelmed. And yet, it's so fun _dying_ there ! A huge
challenge. Once we beat something, we're one single step further, in
uncharted territory. Where no one of us was before. UBRS remains UBRS. DM
remains DM. BWL, I've never been deep in. I want to see what's in there.

I fear the day when BWL gets farm-status. It will lose its appeal. But for
the moment, we're still struggling.

If you want a piece of what's happening there:

http://pa.gallati.net/kumelinchen/razor-sa-urleynkite.avi

44MByte video recording from me. With TS2 channel (german speaking) but you
can't hear me, my voice is never being recorded by me. It looks easier than
it is ;) It's the training-run last saturday. First boss in BWL.

Post by Christian Stauffer
the current endgame instances put the individual totally aside. Yes, it
is new & interesting that the coordination of 40 people suddenly is the
most important thing, but for the individual (especially for those who
aren't involved in planning/coordination) it can be disappointing.

Many of our people are bored with the pre-endgame instances currently. Many
of us play alts outside the raid-events. Yes, individualism is definitely
not asked for. But there is other satisfaction to be found, when the group
just works. And every once in a while, individualism shines through when an
impossible situation is saved by the excellent cooperation and individual
skill of a few. Our record is beating 4 (!!) corehounds back to back, two
at the same time (2 respawns, 1 addpull) once with 7 people of 40 left
standing at the end. Memorable things outside boss first-kills do happen in
big groups.

CU

René

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Christian Stauffer

2005-11-22 11:03:26 UTC

Post by Rene
I did solo Maraudon once. Got to her easily, then died. Might have a chance
now as disc/holy, don't know. But the point is, I can also limit myself to
not cast any spell above rank 3 or so. It doesn't change a thing that I
cripple myself or the group cripples itself. It will be harder, yes. It
will be more challenging, yes. But unnecessarily so. This is like grinding
for the frostsaber mounts, in my opinion. It can be done, it takes a lot of
effort but in the end, it isn't any progress at all in my book.

You won't get any loot or cash out of it, yes. But honestly, I'd prefer to
get a team together that regularly attempts UBRS 5man than a 40 man raid
force to MC. Would be, for me, more fun.

Post by Rene
http://pa.gallati.net/kumelinchen/razor-sa-urleynkite.avi
44MByte video recording from me. With TS2 channel (german speaking) but you
can't hear me, my voice is never being recorded by me. It looks easier than
it is ;) It's the training-run last saturday. First boss in BWL.

Didnt see it yet (maybe I will, I'm swiss btw). I've seen another video from
BWL and it looks rather chaotic :-)

Post by Rene
Many of our people are bored with the pre-endgame instances currently. Many
of us play alts outside the raid-events. Yes, individualism is definitely
not asked for. But there is other satisfaction to be found, when the group
just works.

Yes, I see that, and I totally agree that it's far more than just zerging.
The one point I see though is that out of 40 people, at least half of them
are usually just botting. I am healing (and I even think that's one of the
more interesting jobs), the tank spams his aggro tools (which usually is
extremely boring too, because he can't tank more than 1 mob at a time
anyway, and that's hardly something that requires skill or concentration),
the damage dealers kill the one mob with the hunters mark (or however you
tag the next mob to melt), looking for not grabbing aggro.

Chris

Rene

2005-11-22 13:24:11 UTC

Post by Rene
I did solo Maraudon once. Got to her easily, then died. Might have a
chance now as disc/holy, don't know. But the point is, I can also limit
myself to not cast any spell above rank 3 or so. It doesn't change a
thing that I cripple myself or the group cripples itself. It will be
harder, yes. It will be more challenging, yes. But unnecessarily so.
This is like grinding for the frostsaber mounts, in my opinion. It can
be done, it takes a lot of effort but in the end, it isn't any progress
at all in my book.

You won't get any loot or cash out of it, yes. But honestly, I'd prefer
to get a team together that regularly attempts UBRS 5man than a 40 man
raid force to MC. Would be, for me, more fun.

I don't doubt that I will have some fun doing that - but I know I don't
have fun doing it regularly. As I said, this is sort of self-crippling to
make it harder. At the same time I have a goal that is too hard for me (us)
even when we're fully buffed and ready. And it leads to somewhere new. I
can't go there every day, that's for sure. I can't snip my finger and have
39 players around me.

Post by Rene
http://pa.gallati.net/kumelinchen/razor-sa-urleynkite.avi
44MByte video recording from me. With TS2 channel (german speaking) but
you can't hear me, my voice is never being recorded by me. It looks
easier than it is ;) It's the training-run last saturday. First boss in
BWL.

Didnt see it yet (maybe I will, I'm swiss btw). I've seen another video

I know, and chances are we're within 1km of each other. I'm currently at my
workplace near Kreuzplatz/Stadelhofen :)

Post by Christian Stauffer
from BWL and it looks rather chaotic :-)

Initial 3 enemies (2 simple melee guards, 1 caster) and one big dragon that
can be controlled right from the start. Then about 4 new enemies every 10
to 15 seconds until the room is filled with 40 legionnaires, mages and an
unknown number of dragonkin on top. Crowd control is the key.

Post by Rene
Many of our people are bored with the pre-endgame instances currently.
Many of us play alts outside the raid-events. Yes, individualism is
definitely not asked for. But there is other satisfaction to be found,
when the group just works.

Yes, I see that, and I totally agree that it's far more than just
zerging. The one point I see though is that out of 40 people, at least
half of them are usually just botting. I am healing (and I even think
that's one of the more interesting jobs), the tank spams his aggro tools
(which usually is extremely boring too, because he can't tank more than 1
mob at a time anyway, and that's hardly something that requires skill or
concentration), the damage dealers kill the one mob with the hunters mark
(or however you tag the next mob to melt), looking for not grabbing
aggro.

Ah there's variation. Try the speed run. Split the group in 2, one goes in
the direction of luci, the other to gehennas. Record on our server is
4hrs30 or so for a complete clear. We'd have around 5h45 or so, based on
our time but we always do 2 days.

Might change with patch 1.9 and the forced instance reset on wednesday
though.

CU

René

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Christian Stauffer

2005-11-22 16:15:10 UTC

Post by Christian Stauffer
You won't get any loot or cash out of it, yes. But honestly, I'd prefer
to get a team together that regularly attempts UBRS 5man than a 40 man
raid force to MC. Would be, for me, more fun.

I don't doubt that I will have some fun doing that - but I know I don't
have fun doing it regularly. As I said, this is sort of self-crippling to
make it harder.

I see it another way. Just like a 40 man raid dungeon is something
completely different to a 5 man instance, 2manning a green instance is
completely different. It's fun, it's challenging, and you learn to know
your partner better than in any other way. It doesn't forgive any failures,
but it allows (and requires) you to work with your partner in a way that
you don't have in 5+man instances.

Post by Christian Stauffer
Didnt see it yet (maybe I will, I'm swiss btw). I've seen another video

I know, and chances are we're within 1km of each other. I'm currently at my
workplace near Kreuzplatz/Stadelhofen :)

I'm a bit more east (like 40 km) :-)

Post by Rene
Ah there's variation. Try the speed run. Split the group in 2, one goes in
the direction of luci, the other to gehennas. Record on our server is
4hrs30 or so for a complete clear. We'd have around 5h45 or so, based on
our time but we always do 2 days.

I'd actually be happy when our 1 group would be able to reach Luci without
any wipes :-/

Chris

Babe Bridou

2005-11-22 16:35:44 UTC

I'd actually be happy when our 1 group would be able to reach Luci without
any wipes :-/
Chris

Would that by any chance require more than one MC raid a month, with
more than three regular members?

Last time I checked the guild tops 20 lvl60-peeps online each night,
out of more than 100... too casual for MC! :|

Christian Stauffer

2005-11-22 17:09:06 UTC

Post by Babe Bridou
Would that by any chance require more than one MC raid a month, with
more than three regular members?

Actually, we did 1 run per week for the last four weeks (with a core
of ~15-20 people).

Post by Babe Bridou
Last time I checked the guild tops 20 lvl60-peeps online each night,
out of more than 100... too casual for MC! :|

I'm slowly getting that impression too.
(And the fact that the non-casual players just chicken out (*pokes*)
isn't making it easier :-p)

Chris

Babe Bridou

2005-11-23 07:02:46 UTC

Post by Babe Bridou
Would that by any chance require more than one MC raid a month, with
more than three regular members?

Actually, we did 1 run per week for the last four weeks (with a core
of ~15-20 people).

Post by Babe Bridou
Last time I checked the guild tops 20 lvl60-peeps online each night,
out of more than 100... too casual for MC! :|

I'm slowly getting that impression too.
(And the fact that the non-casual players just chicken out (*pokes*)
isn't making it easier :-p)

Face it, when I work on organizing high-end content, and my guild ends
up running MC on saturday only, the only day I don't play, I had to
leave.

Rene

2005-11-22 17:08:49 UTC

Post by Christian Stauffer
You won't get any loot or cash out of it, yes. But honestly, I'd
prefer to get a team together that regularly attempts UBRS 5man than a
40 man raid force to MC. Would be, for me, more fun.

I don't doubt that I will have some fun doing that - but I know I don't
have fun doing it regularly. As I said, this is sort of self-crippling
to make it harder.

I see it another way. Just like a 40 man raid dungeon is something
completely different to a 5 man instance, 2manning a green instance is
completely different. It's fun, it's challenging, and you learn to know
your partner better than in any other way. It doesn't forgive any
failures, but it allows (and requires) you to work with your partner in a
way that you don't have in 5+man instances.

That may be but being in a 40man group for some time also teaches useful
skills when soloed. There will be many many occasions for wipes and near
wipes. They teach you enough survival skills that are very usable in small
groups. I occasionally do small parties with some few members of the
raidgroup. Each of us learnt how to play their class - and learnt it well.
True it might even be more challenging but I learnt alot in the past months
in the raidgroup, and I survive way longer than before. This is not just an
effect of my equipment. I play differently.

Post by Christian Stauffer
Didnt see it yet (maybe I will, I'm swiss btw). I've seen another video

I know, and chances are we're within 1km of each other. I'm currently
at my workplace near Kreuzplatz/Stadelhofen :)

I'm a bit more east (like 40 km) :-)

Hm, St. Gallen then, I'd guess.

Post by Rene
Ah there's variation. Try the speed run. Split the group in 2, one goes
in the direction of luci, the other to gehennas. Record on our server
is 4hrs30 or so for a complete clear. We'd have around 5h45 or so,
based on our time but we always do 2 days.

I'd actually be happy when our 1 group would be able to reach Luci
without any wipes :-/

Well the very first day we went in there it took us 6 hrs to kill Luci and
wipe in front of Magmadar. Now it takes us 1hr to kill both of them, port
to IF, repair and go back in from the start. But between this and then,
there was a learning phase.

It took us a while to get to the safe-spot (cave below luci) without a
wipe. The two bridges area is still dangerous, even today. Depending on how
long you've been doing MC I'd say this is very normal. Be happy about it,
it gets too easy later, when the team is more experienced.

The best tool for this first phase is: A watch[*] ! The respawn times must
be observed closely. A respawn on the bridge is usually a wipe. Then slow
progression and extra carefulnes near the little fire daemon packs. And all
is well. There is actually only one daemon pack you need to fight and you
deal with them this way:

http://pa.gallati.net/vids/mcfun-wichtel.avi (16 MB)

:-)

[*] Ok, ok, I got lazy and I now use the "timers" addon...

CU

René

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Christian Stauffer

2005-11-22 17:25:49 UTC

Post by Rene
That may be but being in a 40man group for some time also teaches useful
skills when soloed. There will be many many occasions for wipes and near
wipes. They teach you enough survival skills that are very usable in small
groups. I occasionally do small parties with some few members of the
raidgroup. Each of us learnt how to play their class - and learnt it well.
True it might even be more challenging but I learnt alot in the past months
in the raidgroup, and I survive way longer than before. This is not just an
effect of my equipment. I play differently.

I know what you mean. MC forces the people to play right.

Although I have to say (and I know it sounds arrogant) that there isn't
much yet that surprises me. It's obvious for me to not spread DPS, or to
keep at distance as a caster, or to keep mobs (especially such you don't
know) away from each other, so only the tank suffers from AoE.

Post by Rene
Hm, St. Gallen then, I'd guess.

Wil, to be exactly :-)

Post by Rene
Well the very first day we went in there it took us 6 hrs to kill Luci and
wipe in front of Magmadar. Now it takes us 1hr to kill both of them, port
to IF, repair and go back in from the start. But between this and then,
there was a learning phase.

Yep. We are getting better too, but the problem is that most of our people
are very very casual. They don't want to listen to orders (when the raid
leader says corpserun you can be sure that someone reincarnates and starts
to res people, which either results in half the raid at one point and half
the raid at the entrance, or the ressed once being killed again), and we
only have a "small" core team who attended on every raid.

But we advanced, even if it was slowly.
1st time: We died our way up to the bridge, attempted the imps 2x, and
gave up
2nd time: About the same as 1st time
3rd time: We made it up to Luci, killed him twice, and gave up because
we didn't have a repair bot :-/
4th time: We went to Luci (only 1 wipe on the way), tried him about 6
times, the best attempt was 13% (and I don't remember why we
died there, either someone aggroed the imps or a corehound
pack respawned, yay :-/)

Post by Rene
The best tool for this first phase is: A watch[*] ! The respawn times must
be observed closely. A respawn on the bridge is usually a wipe. Then slow
progression and extra carefulnes near the little fire daemon packs. And all
is well.

Yes, actually it seems better to wait for a respawn than to just try to
run through it as fast as possible. We have now at least 2 people timing
the mobs.

Post by Rene
There is actually only one daemon pack you need to fight and you
http://pa.gallati.net/vids/mcfun-wichtel.avi (16 MB)

I'll have a look at it, thanks.

Chris

Rene

2005-11-22 18:25:38 UTC

Post by Rene
That may be but being in a 40man group for some time also teaches
useful skills when soloed. There will be many many occasions for wipes
and near wipes. They teach you enough survival skills that are very
usable in small groups. I occasionally do small parties with some few
members of the raidgroup. Each of us learnt how to play their class -
and learnt it well. True it might even be more challenging but I learnt
alot in the past months in the raidgroup, and I survive way longer than
before. This is not just an effect of my equipment. I play differently.

I know what you mean. MC forces the people to play right.

to play "righer". To play right is being taught in BWL, as we find out the
hard way now :)

Post by Christian Stauffer
Although I have to say (and I know it sounds arrogant) that there isn't
much yet that surprises me. It's obvious for me to not spread DPS, or to
keep at distance as a caster, or to keep mobs (especially such you don't
know) away from each other, so only the tank suffers from AoE.

Nah it's more things like people sacrificing themselves in a way they know
that the group survives because of it. Things like switching from the
optimal target to another one to prevent damage. Binding enemies that are
liable to run away. And that all in one :) It's hard to describe. It's sort
of a "I know one when I see one" - thing. When the group excels in
difficult situations, it's a pleasure to play.

Post by Rene
Hm, St. Gallen then, I'd guess.

Wil, to be exactly :-)

Near enough :)

Post by Rene
Well the very first day we went in there it took us 6 hrs to kill Luci
and wipe in front of Magmadar. Now it takes us 1hr to kill both of
them, port to IF, repair and go back in from the start. But between
this and then, there was a learning phase.

Nr. 1 rule on our first few raids: discipline. Very important. We killed
luci at the first day with 35 people who never had been in MC. I doubt this
would have been possible without much discipline. The best of it was:
Nobody had to be forced to behave. Everyone did. We sort of worked
relatively well from the start.

It's hard to proceed fast when there are people without discipline. But if
you proceed never the less they might find out the hard way that it really
works better if they just follow orders.

Post by Christian Stauffer
But we advanced, even if it was slowly.
1st time: We died our way up to the bridge, attempted the imps 2x, and
gave up
2nd time: About the same as 1st time
3rd time: We made it up to Luci, killed him twice, and gave up because
we didn't have a repair bot :-/
4th time: We went to Luci (only 1 wipe on the way), tried him about 6
times, the best attempt was 13% (and I don't remember why we
died there, either someone aggroed the imps or a corehound
pack respawned, yay :-/)

Corehound packs have a 60 minute respawn, so you don't have too much time
and if close, better wait for the respawn.

Post by Rene
The best tool for this first phase is: A watch[*] ! The respawn times
must be observed closely. A respawn on the bridge is usually a wipe.
Then slow progression and extra carefulnes near the little fire daemon
packs. And all is well.

Yes, actually it seems better to wait for a respawn than to just try to
run through it as fast as possible. We have now at least 2 people timing
the mobs.

Post by Rene
There is actually only one daemon pack you need to fight and you
http://pa.gallati.net/vids/mcfun-wichtel.avi (16 MB)

I'll have a look at it, thanks.

This is the only imp-pack we kill. All others can be avoided by clean
(hunter) pulls and walking along the cavern walls.

CU

René

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Yelps

2005-11-23 04:55:56 UTC

I know what you mean. MC forces the people to play right.
Although I have to say (and I know it sounds arrogant) that there isn't
much yet that surprises me. It's obvious for me to not spread DPS, or to
keep at distance as a caster, or to keep mobs (especially such you don't
know) away from each other, so only the tank suffers from AoE.

Post by Rene
Hm, St. Gallen then, I'd guess.

Wil, to be exactly :-)

It's funny I wouldn't be surprised if their already is a college course on
WOW somwhere and if not, there probably will be. It cracks me up when I
hear people in the general chats complaining about Blizzard. One guy said in
his complaint, "it's not rocket science!"---well I beg to differ. It most
certainly IS "rocket science." I'd like to see that complainer designing
and implement something more techically advanced as wow.

dc

dc

dc

Post by Christian Stauffer
Yep. We are getting better too, but the problem is that most of our people
are very very casual. They don't want to listen to orders (when the raid
leader says corpserun you can be sure that someone reincarnates and starts
to res people, which either results in half the raid at one point and half
the raid at the entrance, or the ressed once being killed again), and we
only have a "small" core team who attended on every raid.
But we advanced, even if it was slowly.
1st time: We died our way up to the bridge, attempted the imps 2x, and
gave up
2nd time: About the same as 1st time
3rd time: We made it up to Luci, killed him twice, and gave up because
we didn't have a repair bot :-/
4th time: We went to Luci (only 1 wipe on the way), tried him about 6
times, the best attempt was 13% (and I don't remember why we
died there, either someone aggroed the imps or a corehound
pack respawned, yay :-/)

Yes, actually it seems better to wait for a respawn than to just try to
run through it as fast as possible. We have now at least 2 people timing
the mobs.

Post by Rene
There is actually only one daemon pack you need to fight and you
http://pa.gallati.net/vids/mcfun-wichtel.avi (16 MB)

I'll have a look at it, thanks.
Chris
--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (22) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]

Babe Bridou

2005-11-22 17:08:14 UTC

Post by Rene
I did solo Maraudon once. Got to her easily, then died. Might have a chance
now as disc/holy, don't know.

Soloing the Princess is a tedious, boring fight. It took me about 13
minutes of fighting with my holy priestess. In the end, the only
exciting part is the last two ancient behemoths guarding her. One
mistake and it's over.

Nah, when chris mentions soloing an instance, it's not just "princess
theradras". It's not "bypassing content".

It's actually completing the instance and killing all mobs and bosses
on the way, solo.

Do you remember Noxxion or Celebras? He's fun, you should try him some
day :D

I've stopped soloing on my hunter when I switched servers. My last
three fun solo attempts were on BRD (without key, got up to the Ring of
Law and failed the event, need to retry it), Sunken Temple (damn those
multiplying mobs of death, one bad pull and it's over) and Dire Maul
East (still sickly hard to get past the first patrol. I managed once,
but then there's the same 3 trees patrol inches away).

I still have a movie of me failing the ZF ziggurat event. That's
something I tried to solo routinely when I was grinding gold for
runecloth for kodo. It's very, very entertaining, fun, and challenging.

Maybe if I had epixxz instead of green gear these would be trivial. I
don't care.

On sunday for a change with one of my RL friend, level 38 hunter and
me, level 42 warrior, we 2-manned a bit of Uldaman. We had some nice
three (with pet) vs five pulls, and went up to the lost vikings bosses
(I insisted to not pull them this time cause I had no pots and my
cooldowns were like "28 minutes remaining"), then up to the Giant boss
(which we couldn't attempt due to not having done the vikings, duh).
That was fun, and the loot was so good our inventories were full of
greens... we hearthstoned and sold the loot and I had my mount money.
Never underestimate the power of aggro ping pong. Strategy on one of
the 40+ boss (can't remember name): warrior tanks adds but don't build
aggro on them. Hunter solo boss as fast as possible then peels out
three adds on pet. Warrior bandages and kills adds. Pure fun.

Yelps

2005-11-22 09:25:33 UTC

Post by Yelps
Of course the word "game" includes all of WOW but on a continuum, there is
the "Endgame." and the skill and practice required to do it properly.
Sure
many people are after "purples" like Rabid dogs, but the real challenge is
the difficulty of these Instances. How you could call them 'boring," is
strange. Sure if you'd done it too many times, then like anything in the
game it could become boringand repetative. BG can be a lot of fun but there
too teamwork and learning teamwork is essential and probably the biggest
challenge of all.
dc

Yes I'm familiar the with the "Endgame" that WoW has. I actually feel the
term is apt, because in my opinion a lot of the game ends at this point.
MC is boring for the majority of players participating at an individual
skill level. The vast bulk of the skills, talents and strategies that
you've spent 60 levels learning and refining are simply gone.
What 40 player raids are about is fooling demi-god level entities into
attacking the one player that most resembles a solid block of steel while
all the squishy healers chain heal it and everyone else is wailing on
them. Demi-god of stupidity? I can handle it when lesser mobs and bosses
in 5 man instances are forced to go toe to toe with a warrior who's in
their face and not letting them get past them. Why should Ragnaros be so
collossaly stupid so as to not go for the healers. It's an insult to both
the lore of the game and also to the players.
It might be fun for the one or two raid leaders who get off on hitting
their "Start DPS!" or "Stop DPS!" macros at the times they read up on one
of the "uber" guilds websites maybe. Maybe the MT likes to feel as though
they are somehow the center of attention.
In any case, I do recognise that some people like that sort of stuff, more
power to them I say, but to say that that sort of mind-deadening stuff is
where the game truly starts is ludicrous.

lol.. Of course, if we want, we can look at the whole game, except BG, as
just a mechanical program, but it is the human element and the interactions
that make it fun as well as the nvoelty and high end tech eye candy.. Of
course if we look too close then we can see how "collassally stupid" it is,
spending so much time like rats in a maze, grinding away.at pre-programmed
modules, that each require learning the tricks to get through them. But of
course we have to suspend our disbelief and play in the roles to enjoy it,
otherwise we will notice how blind and deaf those Ogres are when we stick
to the walls. overthinking and using critical thinking about it's substance
or reality diminishes it because gaming technology at this time is still
not omniscient. The smae hold true with motion picture, we can sit in a
movie and say, "this is all fake stuff and celluloid."

BG is alot like baseball, football or basketball and requires learned skills
on a more human level and is hardcore competition and could have a lot of
long term playability.

When I said, "the game" as it is, "begins at lvl 60," is in the sense that
here everyone can now become equal again, in their level and face the most
difficult challenges in the endgame together and then the human element and
teamwork become essential, just to get through them. Of course we could get
bored of it after it becomes old hat and we could get rubbed the wrong way
by people taking it too seriously if they begin to think they really are
those "uber" guild leaders. Thats not my thing, but I sure need them for a
while to get through the Endgame. Its a gameand there are going to be
experts to learn from. If they are wacko then find a different guild with
people that keep it in perspective. At any rate the game is extraordinary
and alot of fun.

The only other game I've played for any period of time was Diablo 2 and it
was great for months, but eventually I learned how to easily lvl and kill
Diablo alone and then all that was left if one wanted to keep playing, was
downloading hacks, getting God-Mode, and getting the juvenile kick out of
ganking newbies and finding exploits, which for most normal people losses
it's thrill in quick order, when the novelty and humor wears off. Some
people playing wow I think are too gamed out already and went straight to
ganking. Some people really get into guilds and all that and stay in that,
and more power to them, but it is apparent that to play in the high lvl
instances or in BG teamwork is necessary.

dc

Christian Stauffer

2005-11-22 09:22:07 UTC

Post by David HARRISON
You play all the way to 60 and you aren't playing the game? Did you really
just say that?

Actually, if you never play instances or other stuff that's challenging for
a 5 man group, yeah, you never played the game.

Chris

steve.kaye

2005-11-22 10:56:04 UTC

Post by David HARRISON
You play all the way to 60 and you aren't playing the game? Did you really
just say that?

Actually, if you never play instances or other stuff that's challenging for
a 5 man group, yeah, you never played the game.

Actually, if you start up WoW, login in successfully and have fun
controlling a character for any length of time then you have played the
game. You've not played the whole game but you have played it all the
same.

steve.kaye

Catriona R

2005-11-22 18:55:32 UTC

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:35:33 +0000 (UTC), David HARRISON

Post by David HARRISON
The 40 player raid content in WoW is a serious turnoff to a very large
number of players. I ran MC a few times when our guild reached that level
back in march and that was more than enough for me. Raiding is one of the
most boring things this game has to offer. With a very few exceptions,
people go there ONLY for the Purple. If there was no Purple to be had, or
it could be achieved some other way in comparable time invested, then 40
player raid instances would be dead. Wonder why.

Agree completely - I'd like to see some one or two-man instances with good
drops, so those people who don't like the hassle of huge groups can have a
chance to get good gear as well. I'd love to have the challenge of
solo-clearing a series of tough mobs (obviously only one or two at a time),
and then getting a reward from it - soloing the quests from Nesingwary's
expedition in STV has been a great source of satisfaction to me, especially
killing the lvl 43 elite raptor at lvl 42 (haven't tried Bangalash yet; as
he has friends I might have to give in and get a group for that!), so a
carefully-designed instance, made to be possible but very tough for one
player to solo, would be a fantastic challenge which I'd love to try, and I
think would really add a lot to the game.

I'm curious about MC and so on, of course, and as I've ended up in a guild
large enough to do them (not through choice, it was far smaller when I
joined but they then merged with two others), I'll try them in time, but
for me soloing, duoing, or other *small* group activity is my preferred
way. Not 40-man raids, they just seem pointless except for the loot.

Post by David HARRISON
For a lot of people, this game absolutely ends at 60. I stayed on for
several months and had a lot of fun PvPing (until BG's and the honour
system killed that off), and a lot of fun doing stealth runs in instances
(rogue), or two-three manning instances like LBRS,BRD,scholo etc. 5 man
UBRS runs are so much more fun than the insult to players that MC is.

And for those of us not interested in PVP there's even less to do at lvl 60
beyond grinding rep with various factions... I'm in no rush to get there!

--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 42)
Droch - Undead Warlock (lvl 23)

Hornet

2005-11-22 19:29:34 UTC

Post by Catriona R
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:35:33 +0000 (UTC), David HARRISON

I'm curious about MC and so on, of course, and as I've ended up in a guild
large enough to do them (not through choice, it was far smaller when I
joined but they then merged with two others), I'll try them in time, but
for me soloing, duoing, or other *small* group activity is my preferred
way. Not 40-man raids, they just seem pointless except for the loot.

MC is a 5 hour clear on average. Some guilds take 6-7 some take 3. This
will provide ~20 epics, depending on how lucky you get with bind on
equips and if you kill Ragnaros. A good loot/raid ratio is around 1:3
and after you've done MC a lot and are only looking for something
specific, can get up to 1:8-9 easily.

People invest a lot of time into getting epic'd out, thats why they
have a problem with you getting similar gear for doing some solo work.
In quest form, you'd have to do 15+ hours for each piece of epic gear
for it to work out. It's very difficult to design, and most players
wouldn't pursue it, even if you made it a 5-6 hour quest.

David HARRISON

2005-11-22 23:28:22 UTC

Post by Hornet

Post by Catriona R
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:35:33 +0000 (UTC), David HARRISON

MC is a 5 hour clear on average. Some guilds take 6-7 some take 3. This
will provide ~20 epics, depending on how lucky you get with bind on
equips and if you kill Ragnaros. A good loot/raid ratio is around 1:3
and after you've done MC a lot and are only looking for something
specific, can get up to 1:8-9 easily.
People invest a lot of time into getting epic'd out, thats why they
have a problem with you getting similar gear for doing some solo work.
In quest form, you'd have to do 15+ hours for each piece of epic gear
for it to work out. It's very difficult to design, and most players
wouldn't pursue it, even if you made it a 5-6 hour quest.

You are proving my point here I think. Why would you have a problem with
someone working on a solo quest line for 15 hours to get one piece of epic
loot that is comparable to the piece of loot that the raider on average
spent 15 hours getting?

This would actually give a choice to all of the players as to what style
of gameplay they'd like to enjoy at level 60. Some people in this thread
like raiding and give the reasons why. I'm happy for them! But there are
just as many people who have given it a try and have found that that sort
of gameplay just isn't for them.

MC equipped people that get defensive about their loot are people that
don't like raiding but have done it anyway for the loot. They get
aggravated at suggestions that 15+ hour 1,2,3,4 or 5 player content that
rewards epics at a commensurate rate with MC raiding because they had to
go raid and put up with a gamestyle that they more often than not
disliked.

There is already one way that simulates this anyway. Grinding for
reputation in AV. This is really only meant to be there as an adjunct to
the actual PVP aspect of the battle ground and is not actually designed as
"endgame" quest content for solo play.

If you read the WoW forums there have been many, many suggestions for 1-5
player content that would be balanced with Raid time invested for player
reward.

I do not for one minute think there is any validity at all in the "MMO"
stands for Massively Multiplayer red herring. Firstly, the game is called
World Of Warcraft, not MMORPG World Of Warcraft. The fact that the game
fits in a genre based on certain characteristics does not ever mean that
the developers should then limit themselves to some set of preconcieved
constraints that go along with that tag. Moreover, when there are millions
of subscribers to this game, why is a group of 50 sufficiently "Massive"
yet a group of 5 not? They both seem quite small relative to the total
number of players playing (as an aside, I was much more dissapointed when
the game first came out that there were to be multiple isolated servers with
no interaction between them). The good aspects of an MMO game is that
there are so many people that you can meet and befriend. Guilds form up
and you have a good time as you progress through the game. The game design
of raid content has caused the end of many guilds in the game by its very
nature. Not always of course, and sometimes new raiding guilds can be very
fun new places, but it's still a very big shame that at 60 a lot of guild
members are forced to leave the guild and join one of the few big raiding
guilds.

Anyway, I'm happy for raid content to be in the game. All I'm asking for
is that an alternative method of progressing your character to the same
level that raiding does (with the same sort of time required etc) be
considered.

Hornet

2005-11-23 00:03:44 UTC

I'm not against it, infact I would probably do it. I went through the
trouble of getting amulet of the darkmoon, that was easily 10-15 hours.

You make some good points actually, and it'd be cool to have the
content to do an alt.

Another problem that I thought of; if you can get nice epics from MC
and solo play, people could easily get a lot of purples very quickly by
doing both, and progress would happen "faster than intended." A lot of
the stuff in this game exists just to make you sit at the computer
longer, and the purple chase is part of that. It'd be great to see one
or two quests though, that aren't class specific to give a really nice
reward for a single item slot. I'm not against it 100%, but I do think
that raiding is an essential part of the game, and no, without raiding,
you shouldn't be running around in full purples.

Also, crafted purples are kinda the soloers domain aren't they?

Catriona R

2005-11-23 01:52:20 UTC

Post by Hornet
Another problem that I thought of; if you can get nice epics from MC
and solo play, people could easily get a lot of purples very quickly by
doing both, and progress would happen "faster than intended." A lot of
the stuff in this game exists just to make you sit at the computer
longer, and the purple chase is part of that. It'd be great to see one
or two quests though, that aren't class specific to give a really nice
reward for a single item slot. I'm not against it 100%, but I do think
that raiding is an essential part of the game, and no, without raiding,
you shouldn't be running around in full purples.

Fair points, I don't object to raiding for some items, I just personally
object to being forced into large raids to get anything particularly good,
without any viable alternative. I can live with raiding being *some* of the
content, but not with it being *all* of the content for non-PVPers who want
good gear. Random world drops of epics don't quite cut it for alternative
ways to get them, so a few very difficult and time-consuming quests which
must be completed solo would be nice, giving rewards suitable for every
class.

Perhaps a quest involving killing level 60+ elites in several difficult
zones around the world, however designed so the elites in question can be
got at without multiple adds! Soloing an elite the same level or one or two
levels higher is achieveable so long as there is one mob only, however it's
a significant challenge, so to do that with several in different zones
which all require a dangerous journey to reach them, would I think be
worthy of an epic reward of some kind.

Post by Hornet
Also, crafted purples are kinda the soloers domain aren't they?

No, because a lot require ingredients which can only be got in the big raid
instances :-( Yes, *some* purples can be crafted, but there's not enough to
kit a player out fully, and certainly not enough that don't require raids.
As a rogue and a leatherworker, so one who can craft my own gear, there are
only eleven craftable epics (according to Allakhazam). Six are immediately
wiped out because there are three in each path, therefore it's not possible
to make the ones in the paths you don't choose. Dreamscale Breastplate is
mail, which I can't wear. Lava Belt has only stamina and fire resistance,
so is only really any use for Molten Core (I'm a rogue, I need agility...
stamina is nice but I'm not sacrificing my agility for fire resistance for
my normal gear!)

Looking at the three paths, all Dragonscale recipes are useless to me as
mail. If I go with Elemental, Shifting Cloak is ideal for me, no objections
to that, except needing to go to Scholomance several times to get one of
the ingredients. Molten Helm is another one aimed at MC only however, with
stamina and fire resist, although the +dodge chance is a nice plus point.
Molten Belt likewise, rogue item but I'd rather have strength than fire
resistance. And both require components which drop only in MC...

For Tribal, Corehound Boots are alright for a rogue, but the same as the
Molten items in that they need MC-only drops and have fire res where other
stats would be of more use. Corehound Belt is likewise on the MC drops with
the addition that its only stats are intellect, which is useless to me. And
Hide of the Wild is a healer's cloak. So, as a leatherworker and rogue,
there is ONE useful epic item that I could craft for myself (after several
runs to a smaller instance of course), and it's down a path I probably
won't take. Crafting isn't really that good an option, is it?

--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 42)
Droch - Undead Warlock (lvl 23)

Hornet

2005-11-23 02:13:28 UTC

I guess I was thinking for the classes I play, you can get robe/belt of
the archmage, gloves of spell mastery and with pristine hide of the
beast--> cap of the scarlet savant.

Flarecore legs are also very nice, even outside MC.

For warriors stronghold gaunts, lionheart helm and plenty of weapons.

Catriona R

2005-11-23 02:25:41 UTC

Post by Hornet
I guess I was thinking for the classes I play, you can get robe/belt of
the archmage, gloves of spell mastery and with pristine hide of the
beast--> cap of the scarlet savant.
Flarecore legs are also very nice, even outside MC.

Ooh, some of those cloth items are very nice indeed (the flarecore ones
require MC-only drops, but even without them the others are good) - ok, I'm
officially jealous of cloth-wearing tailors! Tailoring doesn't even have
the silly split paths that make it impossible to make half the nice items
you want to...

Post by Hornet
For warriors stronghold gaunts, lionheart helm and plenty of weapons.

Some nice stuff there, but has a similar problem to leatherworking in the
split paths (I don't know the details, maybe it's less restrictive than
LW?), and the fact that all the purple stuff needs MC-only drops, except
for 3 items, all within the same section. They're better off than
leatherworkers, so long as they chose Armorsmith, but otherwise it needs a
lot of grinding in MC.

Out of interest, how often do Lava Core and Fiery Core drop? They seem to
be needed in about 75% of craftable epics, which just kills any hope of
crafting purples for anyone not in an enormous guild (where presumably
there'd be significant competition for those drops from all the other
crafters!)

--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 42)
Droch - Undead Warlock (lvl 23)

Hornet

2005-11-23 03:00:19 UTC

You get about 8-10 or so mixed lava/fiery in a full run.

On my server, they've started appearing in decent quantities on the AH
for 150-220g each.

Guilds dont usually put them up for grabs, instead they craft dark iron
kit for their MT and flarecore for the healers, in the name of
progression.

I've never actually seen those epic swords on a person, by the time you
can craft em, might as well just use Obsidian Edged Blade.

Babe Bridou

2005-11-22 23:29:28 UTC

Post by Hornet

Post by Catriona R
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:35:33 +0000 (UTC), David HARRISON

MC is a 5 hour clear on average. Some guilds take 6-7 some take 3. This
will provide ~20 epics, depending on how lucky you get with bind on
equips and if you kill Ragnaros. A good loot/raid ratio is around 1:3
and after you've done MC a lot and are only looking for something
specific, can get up to 1:8-9 easily.
People invest a lot of time into getting epic'd out, thats why they
have a problem with you getting similar gear for doing some solo work.
In quest form, you'd have to do 15+ hours for each piece of epic gear
for it to work out. It's very difficult to design, and most players
wouldn't pursue it, even if you made it a 5-6 hour quest.

I've been trying to gather 40 friends for, ahem, yep about 5 months now
and still haven't managed to go to MC with them. Always pickups. Damn
casual players.

Give us solo/duo quests so we can do epic content together.

Marshall

2005-11-22 07:19:09 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes one can solo all the way to 60, with no big deal----but you aren't really
playing the "game," doing so. The Game has the instances and except for the
lowest instances, you cannot solo them, even at 60 and kill the big bosses.
The Endgame(s) require 40 person teams all planned out carefully. So what you
are saying is placing the emphasis on lvling only. Just getting to 60 is not
the endgame.
The game really begins at 60.

In your opinion. Other equally valid opinions vary widely. I like running the
high level instances, and I like getting to 60 by partying and soloing, as
suits my mood and the need. The game begins at level 1, no matter how
you like to play it. Some are done at 60, some are just getting started.
Instances are not the be-all-end-all of the game, for many people. Anyone
who is having fun with their character, at any level and with any playstyle,
is playing the "game". Your opinion on this matter is as valid as anyone
else's, which is to say it is merely one of over 4.5 million individual opinions
held by WoW players. MMORPG just means there's a lot of players online
playing the game at the same time, not that they all have to party and do
instances all the time. And that's how Blizzard made it to be.
-Marshall

steve.kaye

2005-11-22 11:35:00 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I don't know why you have put "game" in quotes. The game starts after
you log in and create your first character. The game is many things:
killing stuff, learning new skills, instances, PvP, Roleplaying,
Battlegrounds, Raiding and much more. To pick out one aspect and say
that you are not really playing the game unless you do that is just
plain stupid.

You enjoy end-game raiding so much that, for you, it is the game. Me,
I really like the low level stuff. So much that I haven't got near the
end game due to all the alts that I have created. I have played
regularly since March and the highest character I have is 49 - I have
taken 3 or 4 characters to the mid 20s and the rest to the mid teens.
I have played the game and I have had fun doing so. If I ever get to
the end game I may think that it is far far better than the rest of the
game but I would never consider myself to have not been playing these
last 8 months!

Others enjoy the roleplay and they may have the opinion that its what
the game is all about, others just consider PvE a necessary grind to
improve their fun in PvP.

One thing I really like to do with my main is to complete quests that
are higher than my level with as little assistance as possible. Others
would not ever play the game solo. I've recently started a Tauren
Druid on Sunstrider and I aim to group with this character as much as
possible and visit every instance I can on the way up.

They are all different aspects of the game and you can pick and choose
the bits that you enjoy.

steve.kaye

Yelps

2005-11-22 16:04:55 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I don't know why you have put "game" in quotes. The game starts after
killing stuff, learning new skills, instances, PvP, Roleplaying,
Battlegrounds, Raiding and much more. To pick out one aspect and say
that you are not really playing the game unless you do that is just
plain stupid.
You enjoy end-game raiding so much that, for you, it is the game. Me,
I really like the low level stuff. So much that I haven't got near the
end game due to all the alts that I have created. I have played
regularly since March and the highest character I have is 49 - I have
taken 3 or 4 characters to the mid 20s and the rest to the mid teens.
I have played the game and I have had fun doing so. If I ever get to
the end game I may think that it is far far better than the rest of the
game but I would never consider myself to have not been playing these
last 8 months!
Others enjoy the roleplay and they may have the opinion that its what
the game is all about, others just consider PvE a necessary grind to
improve their fun in PvP.
One thing I really like to do with my main is to complete quests that
are higher than my level with as little assistance as possible. Others
would not ever play the game solo. I've recently started a Tauren
Druid on Sunstrider and I aim to group with this character as much as
possible and visit every instance I can on the way up.
They are all different aspects of the game and you can pick and choose
the bits that you enjoy.
steve.kaye

Of course it's all part of the game. My point was that lvling to 60 alone is
just the beginning in the sense that now you have the biggest challenges
Blizzard throws us, which require good teamwork rather then just soloing. I
am not saying I don't like soloing. I soloed and BG'ed, for the most part
till lvl 40, guildless, with only a few pugs into a few of the lower
instances, and ended up having to go back and do instances I never did at
earlier levels because they require grouping, which I avoided. For instance
I did a Warlock quest at Shadowfang Keep at lvl 42 when I should have done
it in the 30's so in that sense I wasn't "really playing the game" as
Blizzard structured it.

My comment about the game not really beginning till lvl 60, is directed at
the idea that getting to 60 is the end goal, which of course is not the end
goal, now you've got the really big instances and those are impossible to
solo. So If one solos all the way to 60 and then thinks they have "played
the game" and it is done and finished they are mistaken, it is just
beginning because the end game instances are the biggest challenges of all.

dc

Doppleganger

2005-11-22 15:17:10 UTC

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.

To a certain extent, yes, but the good stuff, the blues and set items
are'nt soloable as they're mostly drops.

As a rogue, I can buy one or two pieces of my sets, but I have to grind
the upper instances like everyone else to get the rest, and that
requires raids. Most of my good gear comes from drops, like my
Thrashblade, and to upgrade my dagger will require a trip to Blackrock
to get a Barman's.

Also, to finish many of the upper end quest lines requires groups as
they are Elite quests, and rarely soloable - and many end in the same
instances. The game as designed takes you from questing solo and leads
you by the hand into the end-game content, which is all raid content,
and the expansion adds a lot more.

Not that I mind, I've been having fun running Strat and Scholo and the
Blackrock Spires, but very, very little of it is soloable.

Blizzard *claims* you can solo 1-60, but to get the good gear, finish
the upper level quests, and even SEE the end game content, you have to
raid, and raid a lot.

Vertoobli

2005-11-22 16:23:52 UTC

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:17:10 -0800, Doppleganger

Post by Doppleganger

Post by s***@rocketmail.com
Wow is an MMORPG. Considering it's a MASSIVE MUTLI-PLAYER ONLINE role
playing game, the game ends for solo players at level 1 IMHO.

Pull your head in fuck knuckle.
Not only is your opinion not held by others, it aint held by Blizzard who
have gone to great pains to ensure the game is soloable from 1 - 60.

To a certain extent, yes, but the good stuff, the blues and set items
are'nt soloable as they're mostly drops.
As a rogue, I can buy one or two pieces of my sets, but I have to grind
the upper instances like everyone else to get the rest, and that
requires raids. Most of my good gear comes from drops, like my
Thrashblade, and to upgrade my dagger will require a trip to Blackrock
to get a Barman's.
Also, to finish many of the upper end quest lines requires groups as
they are Elite quests, and rarely soloable - and many end in the same
instances. The game as designed takes you from questing solo and leads
you by the hand into the end-game content, which is all raid content,
and the expansion adds a lot more.
Not that I mind, I've been having fun running Strat and Scholo and the
Blackrock Spires, but very, very little of it is soloable.
Blizzard *claims* you can solo 1-60, but to get the good gear, finish
the upper level quests, and even SEE the end game content, you have to
raid, and raid a lot.

It is a shame that there isn't real content for Solo lvl 60 Play, Sure
its a MMORPG, but how many of us do anything, if it involved the
coordinated efforts of 40 people outside of work? I'd wager to many.
Endgame seems a little exclusive. The whole "teaches about teamwork"
might be very nice for some, but its all sounds a little too automated
and takes the choices away from the players. There are some people who
don't want to work at a game just to constantly be told what to do by
strangers, thats work for a lot of us. I personally dislike instances
aside from the ones I can do myself, or partied with my missus. If she
takes the time to notice me going under and heals me, I'm happy. If
shes too busy throwing mana fuelled death at things for there to be
any mana left for me, thats upto her. I like that people can do things
together in MMORPGS, I don't like the concept that they must. I
dislike that it becomes forced in Endgame, that you MUST party with 40
other people in order to see things through. Life is about doing stuff
you don't want to, paid recreation shouldn't be. Needing 40 people to
mass together for a quest is crazy. Most Mmorpgs have this kind of
thing, hoping that it gives the maxxed out chars something to stop
them getting bored.

joe

2005-11-22 18:20:25 UTC

Post by Vertoobli
I'd wager to many.
Endgame seems a little exclusive.... Needing 40 people to
mass together for a quest is crazy. Most Mmorpgs have this kind of
thing, hoping that it gives the maxxed out chars something to stop
them getting bored.

Hear, hear! The other crazy part is the exclusive guilds. After reviewing
the application for one exclusive guild, I felt I was applying for a nuclear
physicist job at Lawerence Livermore Labs. I don't need that anymore so I
guess I will just skip the "end game".

Alos, I don't understand why Blizzard can extend the questing system to
level 100 or even 200. There should be a path to epics for the questers,
even if it is long and difficult. I don't believe I am alone in this view.
I suspect the vast majority of players wish for a more expansive questing
system instead of being forced into paths that do not resemble how the game
began at level 1.

Yelps

2005-11-23 05:00:21 UTC

Post by joe

But there are many kinds of guilds and you are not bound to have to do the
endgame if you absoultely aren;t interested in it and there are guild that
are into that idea and just group, but hey whats wrong with doing a little
physics?

Post by joe
Also, I don't understand why Blizzard can extend the questing system to
level 100 or even 200. There should be a path to epics for the questers,
even if it is long and difficult. I don't believe I am alone in this view.
I suspect the vast majority of players wish for a more expansive questing
system instead of being forced into paths that do not resemble how the game
began at level 1.

Do you check the Auction house for "Purple," most all of it appears at one
time and another and all you have to do is your "professions to gather the
gold while you play and also, evwen the Legendary Items can be a World Drop.

dc

Christian Stauffer

2005-11-24 09:28:22 UTC

Post by joe
Hear, hear! The other crazy part is the exclusive guilds. After reviewing
the application for one exclusive guild, I felt I was applying for a nuclear
physicist job at Lawerence Livermore Labs. I don't need that anymore so I
guess I will just skip the "end game".
Alos, I don't understand why Blizzard can extend the questing system to
level 100 or even 200. There should be a path to epics for the questers,
even if it is long and difficult. I don't believe I am alone in this view.
I suspect the vast majority of players wish for a more expansive questing
system instead of being forced into paths that do not resemble how the game
began at level 1.

More quests at 60? Yes, why not. Easy to earn epics? Hell no. (btw, this
comes from someone who's 60 for about 4 months and doesn't have a single
endgame epic).
Epic items are called epic because they are something special. I quite don't
understand the "it's unfair that I can't just solo 20h and then get my epic
item". Every epic item is incredibly hard to get. Either through reputation
farming (AV takes one hell of a time to get to exalted), through farming
ingredients (one of my guilds druids just farmed for 3 weeks to get the
ingredients for a hide of the wild), or through raiding. Epic items are
not only called epic because they have great stats, but because they are
earned in epic fights. So yes, I'd be all for putting a few epics in the
game which can be earned in 5 man groups, but then make them quest rewards
of a long quest chain which requires the 5 people to play perfectly.

I can't neither understand why everyone thinks he had to be geared in full
epics. Geez, when you don't do anything but solo, what do you want those
items for? For being able to farm faster so you get even more cash?

And about the point that there's nothing left to do for soloers at 60: Yes,
that's right. At a certain point you'll have all the quests done, and
you're finished. What do you expect? There can't be an endless amount of
quests. It's the same for those who play in teams: Life ends at 60. BUT,
those who play in teams/raids can do repeatable instances like MC or BWL
as long as they don't get tired of it.
You could do the same by yourself, by soloing ZF/Uldaman/whatever until
you're tired of it, but it will happen much sooner.
So, honestly, what do you expect? More quests at 60 for soloers? Ok, but
you'll soon have them done and a month later you are again what you are
now.

Chris

Yelps

2005-11-23 04:39:30 UTC

Post by Vertoobli
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:17:10 -0800, Doppleganger

Post by Doppleganger