Is it "legal" to buy/sell gold or exotic items using REAL money ?

[David Goh]

Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ?? I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?

If they're allowable by Blizzard, then which are the recommended
websites to buy/sell gold or exotic items (for real money) ??

David

[John Gordon]

Post by David Goh
If they're allowable by Blizzard, then which are the recommended
websites to buy/sell gold or exotic items (for real money) ??

That is a violation of the terms of service.

[pv+ (Paul Vader)]

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ?? I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?

It's possible - it's against the terms of service (besides being stupid).
But I'm not aware of anyone who's lost their account for BUYING gold.

Post by David Goh
If they're allowable by Blizzard, then which are the recommended
websites to buy/sell gold or exotic items (for real money) ??

Stay away, and enjoy earning your own gear. *

[Genius Jones]

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ?? I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?
If they're allowable by Blizzard, then which are the recommended
websites to buy/sell gold or exotic items (for real money) ??
David

It violates the terms of service, but Blizzard doesn't enforce that
particular stipulation in the cast of simple gold sales. Or at least
they haven't yet.

It's easy to make gold, though, we can tell you all the best techniques
right here in this forum. In fact, if you do a search through the last
month's posts, you'll find several on this topic.

Regards,
GJ

[Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind]

I believe Blizzard has continually suspended and cancelled money
laundering on the part of the seller. AFAIK it is generally low profile
but you can point to the "gold limit/cap" on the demo players as a way
to stop the money laundering.

However as Blizzard gets smarter so does the money laundering. I think
they are more interested in chasing the sellers than the buyers. This
doesn't mean they won't ban your account. As a player we agreed to
abide by TOS when you bought and installed the game.

[Genius Jones]

Post by Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind
I believe Blizzard has continually suspended and cancelled money
laundering on the part of the seller. AFAIK it is generally low profile
but you can point to the "gold limit/cap" on the demo players as a way
to stop the money laundering.

As a small point of fact, I believe that the suspensions and
cancellations for money laundering have been on accounts that are
'compromised.' Which means that someone has funneled money into and/or
out of an account that has been password jacked (stolen). I'm sure
you're right about them chasing down the sellers but I'm fairly certain
that no accounts that weren't involved in some kind of account
compromise (stealer or steal-ee) have had any action taken against
them.

Definitely abide by the ToS all, it's not so tough.

Also, the no trade and mail cap on the trial accounts is a great
incentive to buy the darn game too eh? haha

Regards,
GJ

[Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind]

The trade/mail/tell/yell cap was actually quite a boon. Sure it
detracted for the buyer's MMORPG experience but at this point word of
mouth would be the primary incentive to buy anyway. I am not an expert
but I think they've thoroughly exhausted the "hmm i wonder what game
I'll play, I guess I will try this WoW thing" market. I think the next
market would be friend's of friend's or people who are currently
playing other MMORPG.

I digress.

The trade/mail/tell/yell cap is quite a boon but still not completely
failsafe. I've been spammed repeatedly in game by people IN GAME to buy
gold. They don't last long, the first few stayed online until they got
booted by the GM. These days they use a random name, and then log off
after 1-2 minutes and come back on with another char.

Its annoying to be in MC/BWL and get tells from random people.

[Taras Bulba]

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ??

It doesn't seem to be illegal.

Post by David Goh
I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?

No.

There doesn't appear to be any gain for Blizzard in doing so.

Post by David Goh
If they're allowable by Blizzard, then which are the recommended
websites to buy/sell gold or exotic items (for real money) ??

Blizzard doesn't allow them, they just seem apathetic towards them.

They definitely don't endorse them.

If the deal goes sour, you can't expect Blizzard, (or anyone else), to
have much interest or sympathy in the matter.

Find someone you trust, who has had a good experience with one the
companies, and try them. E-bay might be a good start.

Make your initial layout a small one to reduce your liability.


Caveat emptor.




TB

[L]

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ??

It doesn't seem to be illegal.

What? The OP specifically asked if "selling WoW gold, accounts or even offer
levelling services for REAL money" were "legal" practices or not according
to Blizzard's terms and conditions" ,and your response is "> It doesn't seem
to be illegal."
?!?!?
Have you READ the terms of use? Here is a link for you
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

If it is too much too read, you can just scroll down to
8. Selling of Items.
And the final sentence in that section: "you may not sell items for "real"
money or exchange items outside of World of Warcraft. "

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by David Goh
I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?

No.

See the section
12. Termination.
"Blizzard Entertainment reserves the right to terminate this Agreement
without notice, if, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole and absolute
discretion, you fail to comply with any terms contained in these Terms of
Use or the World of Warcraft EULA."

Post by Taras Bulba
There doesn't appear to be any gain for Blizzard in doing so.

There IS a gain for Blizzard to ban accounts that have sold or have received
in-game items/gold in exchange for real money. It may be more fruitful for
Blizzard to go after suppliers rather than the hapless folks who've bought,
but the situation is similar to real-life prosecution of illegal sex trade.
Prostitutes may be the first round up, but if the neighbors are still
complaining, the johns will be targeted as well.

[f***@gmail.com]

Post by L
There IS a gain for Blizzard to ban accounts that have sold or have received
in-game items/gold in exchange for real money. It may be more fruitful for
Blizzard to go after suppliers rather than the hapless folks who've bought,
but the situation is similar to real-life prosecution of illegal sex trade.
Prostitutes may be the first round up, but if the neighbors are still
complaining, the johns will be targeted as well.

Buying gold is definitely a violation of the terms set by Blizzard.
However I disagree that Blizzard will gain from banning accounts.
They've developed a system to prevent real money trades from becoming a
serious matter. If Blizzard do ban these buyers accounts, people will
call customer service and make up all kind of excuses to get their
accounts back. Blizzard is then forced to hire more CSR to deal with
all these disputes. And guess what these people do if they can't get
their accounts back? Buy another copy of WOW and start from the
beginning? No. 95% of them either go somewhere else, or worse, become
an anti-blizzard and tell everyone out there to avoid Blizzard's games.

I don't think that's what Blizzard wants.

[Genius Jones]

Post by L

Post by David Goh
I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?

No.

See the section
12. Termination.
"Blizzard Entertainment reserves the right to terminate this Agreement
without notice, if, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole and absolute
discretion, you fail to comply with any terms contained in these Terms of
Use or the World of Warcraft EULA."

The point is that Blizzard ISN'T acting agains gold buyers. They know
exactly who is transferring gold to and from whom. They're acting
against exploiters and cheaters. Even gold farmers who DON'T use cheats
and exploits to farm, they do nothing about. Clearly this could change.

Personally I am not against the farming and selling. Like I said
before, my RL brother buys gold and otherwise he'd lose interest in the
game and never play it with me. That's an outcome I'd like to avoid
because he and I have a huge blast together, and although I send him
gold and items, I can't make income for 2.

Here's the news today:

World of Warcraft Accounts Closed - Blizzard on 12/21/05
In keeping with Blizzard's aggressive stance against cheating in World
of Warcraft, we have permanently closed more than 18,000 accounts over
the past three months for participating in activities that violate the
game's Terms of Use.

A majority of these accounts were found to be using third-party
programs to farm gold and items. Such actions can severely impact the
economy of a realm and the overall game enjoyment for all players.

We will continue to actively monitor all World of Warcraft realms in
order to protect the service and its players from the negative effects
of cheating. Please note that selling World of Warcraft content, such
as gold, items, and characters, can result in the permanent removal of
the involved accounts from World of Warcraft.

A portion of the account closures announced today came as the result of
tips reported to our GMs in game or emailed to ***@blizzard.com by
legitimate World of Warcraft players. If you suspect that a World of
Warcraft character is using an illegal third-party program to farm gold
or items, or is otherwise violating our Terms of Use, please report the
suspected infraction via one of the means listed above. All reports
will be investigated, and those that prove false will not result in
corrective action.

Thank you for your continued support, and good luck with your
adventures in Azeroth!

-Blizzard Entertainment

[Jack Hollis]

Post by Genius Jones
The point is that Blizzard ISN'T acting agains gold buyers. They know
exactly who is transferring gold to and from whom.

I'm not sure exactly how they would know, assuming that no bots are
being used.

Legit players farm for money and items as well as money farmers. And
over 3 million people play the game. Ultimately, Blizzard has enough
trouble keeping the game up and running without spending lots of man
hours looking for gold farmers.

There's no real way to stop the gold sellers without changing the game
significantly. They could ban the transfer of money through in game
mail between accounts. This wouldn't stop the money farmers, but it
would make it more difficult for them. Then they would have to meet
their customers online and use the trade window.

The could try to use a program to detect "suspicious" behavior, but,
like the one they use in D2 LOD, the program is likely to pick up
legit actions as well as illegal actions. I transferred 700 gold
from my lvl 4 auction mule to my main character last week. Would
something like that trigger a program looking for large money
transfers? And, once the gold sellers know what the triggers are,
they will find a way around them. So you would get 5 pieces of mail
with 200 gold each rather than one with 1000.

I've had my IP blocked in D2 so many times transferring items between
my own accounts, I've lost count. And I never did anything that
violates the D2 TOS.

Personally, I don't think it's a huge problem for the game. Yes, it
creates a certain amount of inflation, but that also means that the
items that you sell in AH will sell for more gold as well. So it evens
out. And when you get to lvl 60, most of the really valuable items
are BoP and then Soulbound. So when it comes to high level play, no
amount of gold is going to make that much difference.

If Blizzard wanted to improve things, they should make the few uber
items that are BoE into BoP items.

[nvrsbr]

Blizzard just closed 18,000 accounts for this exact thing... so I guess
they answered your question for you :)

[Jack Hollis]

Post by nvrsbr
Blizzard just closed 18,000 accounts for this exact thing... so I guess
they answered your question for you :)

Actually they closed 18,000 accounts for using third party programs
which they detect with spyware. This has nothing to do with gold
farmers that sell WoW gold for real money.

[Jack Hollis]

Post by Jack Hollis

Post by nvrsbr
Blizzard just closed 18,000 accounts for this exact thing... so I guess
they answered your question for you :)

Actually they closed 18,000 accounts for using third party programs
which they detect with spyware. This has nothing to do with gold
farmers that sell WoW gold for real money.

I suppose some of the bots are used for gold farming, but I assume
most of gold farmers just play the game like anyone else. From what I
hear there are banks of computers in China staffed 24/7 for the
purpose of farming gold. No spy wear program is going to detect this,
because no third party program is being used.

Actually the one bot that I had the temptation to use is a fishing
bot. I started a new toon and got her fishing skills up to 295. Then
I realized that it would be a long time until I could fish in some of
the high level areas because every time I tried to go to the Gulf of
Storms with my lvl 36 Druid, she got her ass kicked. So, I started
all over again with my level 60 Paladin and it was pretty boring. I
thought that there has to be a bot for this.

Now my auction mule is busy selling around 150 Stonescale Eels.

[pv+ (Paul Vader)]

Post by Jack Hollis
Actually the one bot that I had the temptation to use is a fishing
bot. I started a new toon and got her fishing skills up to 295. Then

Not a bot, but a really great addon is fishing buddy. The best piece is
that it will make the next cast the moment you click on your bobber to
collect a fish. I would say it nearly doubles the amount of fish I can
catch over a 'fish attractor' period, and it even applies that for you if
you've forgotten and have one in your inventory. *

[Jack Hollis]

Post by pv+ (Paul Vader)

Post by Jack Hollis
Actually the one bot that I had the temptation to use is a fishing
bot. I started a new toon and got her fishing skills up to 295. Then

Not a bot, but a really great addon is fishing buddy. The best piece is
that it will make the next cast the moment you click on your bobber to
collect a fish. I would say it nearly doubles the amount of fish I can
catch over a 'fish attractor' period, and it even applies that for you if
you've forgotten and have one in your inventory. *
--

I'll give it a try. However, I never felt that I needed less to do
while fishing :)

[Bob]

Post by Jack Hollis

Post by pv+ (Paul Vader)

Post by Jack Hollis
Actually the one bot that I had the temptation to use is a fishing
bot. I started a new toon and got her fishing skills up to 295. Then

Not a bot, but a really great addon is fishing buddy. The best piece is
that it will make the next cast the moment you click on your bobber to
collect a fish. I would say it nearly doubles the amount of fish I can
catch over a 'fish attractor' period, and it even applies that for you if
you've forgotten and have one in your inventory. *
--

I'll give it a try. However, I never felt that I needed less to do
while fishing :)

ROTFL :)

[Jack Hollis]

Post by Bob

Post by Jack Hollis
I'll give it a try. However, I never felt that I needed less to do
while fishing :)

ROTFL :)

I was thinking that if you used fishing buddy with auto loot you'd
have it down to one click fishing.

[Brian]

"Bother!", said Pooh, as he read Jack Hollis's latest post to
alt.games.warcraft.

Post by Jack Hollis

Post by Bob

Post by Jack Hollis
I'll give it a try. However, I never felt that I needed less to do
while fishing :)

ROTFL :)

I was thinking that if you used fishing buddy with auto loot you'd
have it down to one click fishing.

You basically do. Shift-click the bobber when it bounces, and everything
else happens automatically.

Brian

[Taras Bulba]

Post by L

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ??

It doesn't seem to be illegal.

What?

I said... it doesn't seem to be illegal.

Post by L
The OP specifically asked if "selling WoW gold, accounts or even offer
levelling services for REAL money" were "legal" practices or not according
to Blizzard's terms and conditions" ,and your response is "> It doesn't seem
to be illegal."
?!?!?
Have you READ the terms of use? Here is a link for you
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

Wouldn't it be simpler to refer me to a link where someone has been
prosecuted for any of this?

It may well be against Blizzards ToS, but the question of its legality
will remain uncertain until it gets tested in court. And as far as I
know, that hasn't happened.

Post by L
If it is too much too read, you can just scroll down to
8. Selling of Items.
And the final sentence in that section: "you may not sell items for "real"
money or exchange items outside of World of Warcraft. "

Exactly.

Is that legally enforceable or not?

I think the reason that software companies have shied away from this
issue has to do with that lawyers old adage 'never ask a question, if
you're not sure of the answer'.

Post by L

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by David Goh
I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?

No.

See the section
12. Termination.
"Blizzard Entertainment reserves the right to terminate this Agreement
without notice, if, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole and absolute
discretion, you fail to comply with any terms contained in these Terms of
Use or the World of Warcraft EULA."

They can ban for any reason they wish to, whether you follow the EULA
or not.

Currently, they don't seem to be banning people for buying gold, items
or accounts. If you know different then give us the evidence.

Post by L

Post by Taras Bulba
There doesn't appear to be any gain for Blizzard in doing so.

There IS a gain for Blizzard to ban accounts that have sold or have received
in-game items/gold in exchange for real money.

What gain is that?

Post by L
It may be more fruitful for
Blizzard to go after suppliers rather than the hapless folks who've bought,
but the situation is similar to real-life prosecution of illegal sex trade.

No its not.

It is nothing like that at all. It's more like a computer game.

It is only like that to people with frigid brains and an air of smug
moral rectitude who like to sashay around newsgroups trying to enfoce
their playing style on other players.

The WoW equivalent of Pat Robertson.

Post by L
Prostitutes may be the first round up, but if the neighbors are still
complaining, the johns will be targeted as well.

I take it the neighbours aren't complaining then?



TB

[Genius Jones]

Of course you all realize that the Terms of Service is not a legal
document. It's a legalese document. An agreement, and not even a
contract. Absolutely the worst thing Blizzard can do to you if you are
not breaking any real laws (credit card fraud for example) is to cancel
your account. In fact, they can't do anything at all about credit card
fraud except turn you over to the District Attorney, who enforces real
laws.

So it's legal to do anything you want in that game except threaten the
life of the President of the United States, or conspire to do so.

I assume when the OP said legal in quotes, he meant does it violate the
terms of service, quotes around single words in english normally being
used to show satire, sarcasm, or contrast.

GJ

[David Carson]

Post by Genius Jones
So it's legal to do anything you want in that game except threaten the
life of the President of the United States, or conspire to do so.
I assume when the OP said legal in quotes, he meant does it violate the
terms of service, quotes around single words in english normally being
used to show satire, sarcasm, or contrast.

Satire, sarcasm or contrast aren't even required in this case.

Moving a pawn three spaces forward is not a legal move in chess. Which
law am I violating and is it a misdemeanour or a felony?

Cheers!
David...

[David Carson]

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by L

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ??

It doesn't seem to be illegal.

What?

I said... it doesn't seem to be illegal.

Taras, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by L
The OP specifically asked if "selling WoW gold, accounts or even offer
levelling services for REAL money" were "legal" practices or not according
to Blizzard's terms and conditions" ,and your response is "> It doesn't seem
to be illegal."
?!?!?

Read that again. The OP specifically asked if "selling WoW gold,
accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL money" were "legal"
practices or not according to Blizzard's terms and conditions".

ACCORDING TO BLIZZARD'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

He doesn't want to know if it's against the law of the country he lives
in and whether he can be prosecuted or thrown in jail for it. He wants
to know if Blizzard's terms and conditions allow it.

And, as the passages L quoted demonstrated, they do not. It is not legal
according to their terms and conditions.

Post by Taras Bulba
Currently, they don't seem to be banning people for buying gold, items
or accounts. If you know different then give us the evidence.

On this matter, you are correct, as far as I know.

Post by Taras Bulba
It is nothing like that at all. It's more like a computer game.
It is only like that to people with frigid brains and an air of smug
moral rectitude who like to sashay around newsgroups trying to enfoce
their playing style on other players.
The WoW equivalent of Pat Robertson.

If you don't like the Terms of Service, don't accept them, and don't
play. Don't click on "accept" and then sashay around a newsgroup
accusing those who actually prefer people to play by the rules that they
agreed to play by of "smug moral rectitude".

Cheers!
David...

[Taras Bulba]

Post by David Carson
Taras, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Yes.

Well spotted

Post by David Carson

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by L
The OP specifically asked if "selling WoW gold, accounts or even offer
levelling services for REAL money" were "legal" practices or not according
to Blizzard's terms and conditions" ,and your response is "> It doesn't seem
to be illegal."
?!?!?

Read that again. The OP specifically asked if "selling WoW gold,
accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL money" were "legal"
practices or not according to Blizzard's terms and conditions".
ACCORDING TO BLIZZARD'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
He doesn't want to know if it's against the law of the country he lives
in and whether he can be prosecuted or thrown in jail for it. He wants
to know if Blizzard's terms and conditions allow it.
And, as the passages L quoted demonstrated, they do not. It is not legal
according to their terms and conditions.

I don't really have much interest in whether selling gold is against
the ToS or not. I leave those questions for the moral majority. They
love that sort of thing.

I am far more interested in the question of whether the ToS has any
legal standing at all. That might make the original question moot.

Post by David Carson

Post by Taras Bulba
Currently, they don't seem to be banning people for buying gold, items
or accounts. If you know different then give us the evidence.

On this matter, you are correct, as far as I know.

Post by Taras Bulba
It is nothing like that at all. It's more like a computer game.
It is only like that to people with frigid brains and an air of smug
moral rectitude who like to sashay around newsgroups trying to enfoce
their playing style on other players.
The WoW equivalent of Pat Robertson.

If you don't like the Terms of Service, don't accept them, and don't
play.

You have no input as to whether I play the game or not. Your impotence
in this matter is of colossal proportions.

Anyway, what makes you think I don't like the ToS?

I neither like nor dislike it. The ToS is a matter of supreme
indifference to me. It would be impossible for me to overstate it's
irelevancy.

I don't click on accept because I am in wholehearted agreement with the
ToS, I click on it as a means of playing the game. If the ToS said that
I had to lever off my own kneecaps whilst playing, I would still click
on 'accept'. Obviously, owing to my moral degeneracy in believing the
ToS to be worthless, I would not be taking a crowbar to my knees.

Post by David Carson
Don't click on "accept" and then sashay around a newsgroup

Why not?

Are you going to suspend my account for breaching your Terms of
Service?

Post by David Carson
accusing those who actually prefer people to play by the rules that they
agreed to play by of "smug moral rectitude".

That's what you do.

No-one gives a fuck if someone buys gold. Not Blizzard and not the vast
majority of WoW players. If they did care, they would do something
about it.

The only people that care are those relics that strut around
newsgroups, red-faced and indignant, seizing some imaginary moral high
ground, gushing with false outrage, and preaching to anyone bored
enough to listen, about the evils of buying gold.



TB

[Genius Jones]

Post by Taras Bulba
I don't really have much interest in whether selling gold is against
the ToS or not. I leave those questions for the moral majority.

Morality has nothing to do with the binary question of wether or not an
activity breaks the ToS. Buying gold breaks the ToS. Period. Wether or
not they do something about it is something else.

Post by Taras Bulba
I am far more interested in the question of whether the ToS has any
legal standing at all. That might make the original question moot.
TB

As I've already said, in this very thread, the ToS is NOT a legal
document. It's an agreement written in legalese verbage. The worst
thing Blizzard can do to you for breaking it is cancel your account. If
they suspect real fraud or some other illegal activity related to their
game, they can refer the case to their state District Attorney, who
will pursue it.

GJ

[Nabuu]

Post by Taras Bulba
I am far more interested in the question of whether the ToS has any
legal standing at all. That might make the original question moot.

If you mean "legal standing" in the sense that breaking the TOS is a
"crime" and you can go to jail or be court-fined for it, no.

If you mean "legal standing" in the sense that it is a binding contract,
and Blizz can take the remedies described in the TOS for infractions [by
you or another user] of the TOS -- a CIVIL (vice criminal) legal
standing -- then yes.

Specifically, if you & Blizz get in an argument over terms, a [civil]
court is likely to read carefully the TOS and consider you to have
"agreed" to it, no matter how hard you try to argue otherwise.

[Taras Bulba]

Post by Nabuu
Specifically, if you & Blizz get in an argument over terms, a [civil]
court is likely to read carefully the TOS and consider you to have
"agreed" to it, no matter how hard you try to argue otherwise.

I'm sure they would consider that piece of evidence, but that doesn't
mean Blizzard would automatically win any lawsuit. And perhaps there
are things that Blizzard would not be happy to have decided in a court.

They might consider exactly who owns what.

For instance; does Blizzard own the gold that is made in WoW?

There is a good article discussing this by Richard Bartle;
http://www.themis-group.com/uploads/Pitfalls%20of%20Virtual%20Property.pdf

and one from Legal500;
http://www.legal500.com/devs/uk/en/uken_073.htm




TB

[Nabuu]

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu
Specifically, if you & Blizz get in an argument over terms, a [civil]
court is likely to read carefully the TOS and consider you to have
"agreed" to it, no matter how hard you try to argue otherwise.

I'm sure they would consider that piece of evidence, but that doesn't
mean Blizzard would automatically win any lawsuit. And perhaps there
are things that Blizzard would not be happy to have decided in a court.

Well, sure -- but you could rob a bank and be found "not guilty", too.
Anything's possible... :)

[Taras Bulba]

Post by Nabuu

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu
Specifically, if you & Blizz get in an argument over terms, a [civil]
court is likely to read carefully the TOS and consider you to have
"agreed" to it, no matter how hard you try to argue otherwise.

I'm sure they would consider that piece of evidence, but that doesn't
mean Blizzard would automatically win any lawsuit. And perhaps there
are things that Blizzard would not be happy to have decided in a court.

Well, sure -- but you could rob a bank and be found "not guilty", too.

Thats right.

You could be totally innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Especially
if the "crime" didn't exist in the first place.

Post by Nabuu
Anything's possible... :)

Really?

Is it possible to make a MMORPG that no-one has disagreements about?



TB

[Nabuu]

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu
Anything's possible... :)

Really?
Is it possible to make a MMORPG that no-one has disagreements about?

I've actually written one.

Nabuu "the key is in the player-count" ;)

[Taras Bulba]

Post by Nabuu

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu
Anything's possible... :)

Really?
Is it possible to make a MMORPG that no-one has disagreements about?

I've actually written one.

No, you haven't.

Thats the end of no disagreements for that game isn't it?

Post by Nabuu
Nabuu "the key is in the player-count" ;)

What is the player-count difference between multi-player and massively
multi-player?

TB

[Nabuu]

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu
Anything's possible... :)

Really?
Is it possible to make a MMORPG that no-one has disagreements about?

I've actually written one.

No, you haven't.
Thats the end of no disagreements for that game isn't it?

Oops, you're right -- I mis-interpreted no-PLAYERS have disagreements...

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu
Nabuu "the key is in the player-count" ;)

What is the player-count difference between multi-player and massively
multi-player?

Heh, more for us to disagree about, but I believe that MMO is a genre
and a design-ability, regardless of the ACTUAL number of players. That
is, it's possible to have an MMO with 0 or 1 players, so long as it
COULD have "unlimited" (save for the server/pipe size, as differentiated
by those with a fixed-sized connections array.)

MMOs are designed such that too many players can bring the system to its
knees; LAN games have the fault/weakness that they can't do that ;)

[Brian Westley]

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by Nabuu
Specifically, if you & Blizz get in an argument over terms, a [civil]
court is likely to read carefully the TOS and consider you to have
"agreed" to it, no matter how hard you try to argue otherwise.

I'm sure they would consider that piece of evidence, but that doesn't
mean Blizzard would automatically win any lawsuit. And perhaps there
are things that Blizzard would not be happy to have decided in a court.
They might consider exactly who owns what.
For instance; does Blizzard own the gold that is made in WoW?
There is a good article discussing this by Richard Bartle;
http://www.themis-group.com/uploads/Pitfalls%20of%20Virtual%20Property.pdf
and one from Legal500;
http://www.legal500.com/devs/uk/en/uken_073.htm

Here's a 2003 legal decision in China (for all you farmers out there):

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/19/china.gamer.reut/

Online gamer in China wins virtual theft suit

BEIJING, China (Reuters) --A Chinese court has ordered an online video
game company to return hard-won virtual property, including a
make-believe stockpile of bio-chemical weapons, to a player whose game
account was looted by a hacker.

Li Hongchen, 24, had spent two years, and 10,000 yuan ($1,210) on
pay-as-you-go cards to play, amassing weapons and victories in the
popular online computer game Hongyue, or Red Moon, before his "weapons"
were stolen in February, the Xinhua news agency said on Friday.
...
In the end, Beijing's Chaoyang District People's Court ruled on Thursday
that the firm should restore the player's lost items, finding the
company liable because of loopholes in the server programs that made it
easy for hackers to break in.
...

---
Merlyn LeRoy

[Taras Bulba]

Post by Brian Westley
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/19/china.gamer.reut/
Online gamer in China wins virtual theft suit
BEIJING, China (Reuters) --A Chinese court has ordered an online video
game company to return hard-won virtual property, including a
make-believe stockpile of bio-chemical weapons, to a player whose game
account was looted by a hacker.

Yes, I remember the case.

I also remember everyone waiting for the decision between Black Ice and
Mythic. Unfortunately Black Ice quit the lawsuit and no decision was
handed down. That might have set some precedents and cleared up some
ambiguities.

I do think that the software companies are a little afraid of some of
the decisions that might arise as to who owns virtual property.



TB

[David Carson]

Post by Taras Bulba

Post by David Carson
Taras, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Yes.
Well spotted

Ah, well, thanks for clarifying that. Bye!

Cheers!
David...

[Mark]

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ?? I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?
If they're allowable by Blizzard, then which are the recommended
websites to buy/sell gold or exotic items (for real money) ??
David

Depending on how Blizzard monitors the game. It maybe simple for them to
check who has transfered large amounts of gold to users over the past year
or so (for example). If they find that user is using bots,cheats or hacks to
farm for the gold via automated means they will ban that persons account.
Now, if that person is sending you say 100g at a time (I've checked their
websites, one website offers 10,000g at a time delivered within 2hours in
game) blizzard maybe able to track who the money is going to and suppend/ban
their accounts too.

The last two mmorpgs I played did the same kind of thing when cheating and
automatd hacks etc got out of control. They did a big swipe of the accounts
after monitoring them for a few months and just banned them all. but it was
mainly dupped items that got them banned rather then in game monies. Another
mmorpg did it on a weekly basis. I guess these games wern't very secure or
they just had lots of cheaters. They didn't have to pay for their accounts
like you do with wow, so that may have helped the number of cheats. But in
any case, I sure wouldn't like to have my high level toon account banned,
paid for or not.

[SiD]

Post by David Goh
Doing some Google searches, I saw some websites selling
WoW gold, accounts or even offer levelling services for REAL
money. Now are these "legal" practices or not according to
Blizzard's terms and conditions ?? I mean will we get our
accounts banned for doing such things ?
If they're allowable by Blizzard, then which are the recommended
websites to buy/sell gold or exotic items (for real money) ??

Check the News page on the WoW site ....12.21.05

:-)

SiD