AQ40: How much SR for Warlock Tank at Twin Emps?

Post by Lehi
I saw somebody else posting about NR and thought I would throw this
question out there. I'm pushing ~180 SR and expect to be the lock
tank for Vek'lor. There are a couple blues I'm farming, plus the
Juno's Shadow cloak, so hopefully I can hit ~225 soon. Is that going
to keep me alive during Twin Emps?

You'll want to hit 315 fully buffed. Being maxed out on SR is more
important than you might think, because high resistance levels
dramatically reduce the chance of taking multiple full-damage
shadowbolts in a row.

Assuming the warlocks in my guild are to be trusted, the following
buffs all stack:

Priest's Shadow Protection: 60
Gift of Arthas (potion): 10
Master Demonologist: 60
Demon Armor: (don't know, too lazy to look it up)

(The paladin SR aura doesn't stack with the Priest buff; nor does Mark
of the Wild to my knowledge.)

So if you don't have Master Demonologist, you'll want to be at 245 SR
with just Demon Armor up. If you do have MD and you can use it, you'll
want to be at 185 with Demon Armor.

Eric D. Braden

2006-11-06 21:36:29 UTC

Post by a***@fastmail.us

You'll want to hit 315 fully buffed. Being maxed out on SR is more
important than you might think, because high resistance levels
dramatically reduce the chance of taking multiple full-damage
shadowbolts in a row.
Assuming the warlocks in my guild are to be trusted, the following
Priest's Shadow Protection: 60
Gift of Arthas (potion): 10
Master Demonologist: 60
Demon Armor: (don't know, too lazy to look it up)
(The paladin SR aura doesn't stack with the Priest buff; nor does Mark
of the Wild to my knowledge.)
So if you don't have Master Demonologist, you'll want to be at 245 SR
with just Demon Armor up. If you do have MD and you can use it, you'll
want to be at 185 with Demon Armor.

Random meaningless question:

With MD, how much do you risk losing your felhunter in the fight? I've
never gotten past MC, so never seen the Emps, beyond a video or two.

Simon Nejmann

2006-11-06 23:16:25 UTC

On 6 Nov 2006 13:36:29 -0800, "Eric D. Braden"

Post by Eric D. Braden
With MD, how much do you risk losing your felhunter in the fight? I've
never gotten past MC, so never seen the Emps, beyond a video or two.

If you park it on the stairs where you enter the emp room, then it
really shouldn't take any more damage than what it takes through Soul
Link.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

Lehi

2006-11-06 22:41:11 UTC

Post by a***@fastmail.us

You'll want to hit 315 fully buffed. Being maxed out on SR is more
important than you might think, because high resistance levels
dramatically reduce the chance of taking multiple full-damage
shadowbolts in a row.
Assuming the warlocks in my guild are to be trusted, the following
Priest's Shadow Protection: 60
Gift of Arthas (potion): 10
Master Demonologist: 60
Demon Armor: (don't know, too lazy to look it up)
(The paladin SR aura doesn't stack with the Priest buff; nor does Mark
of the Wild to my knowledge.)
So if you don't have Master Demonologist, you'll want to be at 245 SR
with just Demon Armor up. If you do have MD and you can use it, you'll
want to be at 185 with Demon Armor.

Thanks for the input. I'm a Master Demonologist - using Soul Link for
AOE lock tanking whenever I can.

What about the green +Shadow gear that is found throughout the world,
i.e. Will it gimp me to use a +20 shadow resist glove (from Maleki)
instead of my +7 shadow resist tier 2 glove? I have about 4 greens
that are +SR only.

Frostmane PVP:
Laban - Troll Rogue

Khaz Modan PVE:
Avocat - Gnome Warlock
Layci - Human Rogue
Dendriform - Night Elf Druid
Knievel - Human Paladin

Simon Nejmann

2006-11-06 23:23:57 UTC

Post by Lehi
Thanks for the input. I'm a Master Demonologist - using Soul Link for
AOE lock tanking whenever I can.
What about the green +Shadow gear that is found throughout the world,
i.e. Will it gimp me to use a +20 shadow resist glove (from Maleki)
instead of my +7 shadow resist tier 2 glove? I have about 4 greens
that are +SR only.

Darkbind Fingers <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=23252>?

Compared to Nemesis Gloves <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=27656> then you
gain 10 SR, but lose 17 stamina (19.5 if you have 5/5 Demonic
Embrace). Im not entirely sure, but that trade doesn't sound too good
to me - I guess it depends a lot on the rest of your gear though... :/

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

pv+ (PV)

2006-11-06 23:42:28 UTC

Post by Lehi
What about the green +Shadow gear that is found throughout the world,
i.e. Will it gimp me to use a +20 shadow resist glove (from Maleki)
instead of my +7 shadow resist tier 2 glove? I have about 4 greens
that are +SR only.

You're going to be spamming searing pain which does double threat, so you
can probably get away with greens in a few places. But you need stamina
too, something you don't get much of with greens. Look into the runed
stygian items, they're practically tailor made for this fight. *

--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Lehi

2006-11-07 16:40:18 UTC

I have them, and the +10 SR Enchant from LHC quest on the pants. I'm
debating whether to get another +10 SR Enchant for my Nemesis hat.

Frostmane PVP:
Laban - Troll Rogue

Khaz Modan PVE:
Avocat - Gnome Warlock
Layci - Human Rogue
Dendriform - Night Elf Druid
Knievel - Human Paladin

pv+ (PV)

2006-11-06 23:39:53 UTC

If you have master demonologist, you've got 60SR right there, which gets
you in striking range with just a few more buffs. Nice things to go looking
for - do the brood of nozdromu quests through to where you get the amulet
of shadow shielding. Also, there is a REALLY nice shadow resist robe of
epic quality that drops earlier in AQ40 - both myself and the other warlock
tank were lucky enough to get them. Other than that, find some +20SR rings,
an eidolon cloak, and use all your pieces of tier 1 and tier 2 that have
shadow resist, and you should be in fair shape. You're aiming for 315 - the
closer you get the more shadowbolts in the face you can survive so your
healers can keep up. Enchants from ZG and AD also help. *

--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

k***@gmx.de

2006-11-07 06:33:45 UTC

You're aiming for 315 - the closer you get the more shadowbolts in the face you can survive
so your healers can keep up. Enchants from ZG and AD also help.

There is also a normal cloak enchant +10 shadow resistance.

pv+ (PV)

2006-11-07 14:54:07 UTC

You're aiming for 315 - the closer you get the more shadowbolts in the

face you can survive

so your healers can keep up. Enchants from ZG and AD also help.

There is also a normal cloak enchant +10 shadow resistance.

Yup, it was annoying as hell to get too - astral essences are only ever a
18% product from disenchants, I had to buy about 10 level 24 greens before
I got some. There were none on the AH for 4 days straight. *

--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Lehi

2006-11-08 14:37:58 UTC

Would you mind briefing me on this fight, or pointing me to a page
with a good lock tank strat? I want to make sure I know what's going
on so the guild doesn't appoint some warrior to take my spot.

Frostmane PVP:
Laban - Troll Rogue

Khaz Modan PVE:
Avocat - Gnome Warlock
Layci - Human Rogue
Dendriform - Night Elf Druid
Knievel - Human Paladin

pv+ (PV)

2006-11-08 15:15:32 UTC

Post by Lehi
Would you mind briefing me on this fight, or pointing me to a page
with a good lock tank strat? I want to make sure I know what's going
on so the guild doesn't appoint some warrior to take my spot.

There's an excellent writeup on wowwiki. I can't go there at the moment to
give an exact link. *

--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Lehi

2006-11-09 17:40:03 UTC

There's an excellent writeup on wowwiki. I can't go there at the moment to
give an exact link. *

I have a question regarding their teleports where the Emperors switch
places. Does that happen every 30 seconds for the duration of the
fight? Does that also require that there be two lock tanks, 1 for
each side to get aggro when Vek'Lor appears?

Another question regarding soul link. Does it help to have soul link
on the pet? Or will that burn my pet down too fast? If that's the
case, should I probably get another 60 SR from items and just keep a
VW out?

Which Greater Protection pots should I drink prior to the fight?

I've read a couple good strat pages and get slightly different
information, and don't feel I have a complete picture of what's
happening.

Frostmane PVP:
Laban - Troll Rogue

Khaz Modan PVE:
Avocat - Gnome Warlock
Layci - Human Rogue
Dendriform - Night Elf Druid
Knievel - Human Paladin

pv+ (PV)

2006-11-09 19:23:58 UTC

Post by Lehi
I have a question regarding their teleports where the Emperors switch
places. Does that happen every 30 seconds for the duration of the
fight? Does that also require that there be two lock tanks, 1 for
each side to get aggro when Vek'Lor appears?

Right. They swap places throughout the fight, and since you need to tank
the twins FAR apart (or they heal each other), it's impossible to have one
tanking pair - you have a set on both sides.

Post by Lehi
Another question regarding soul link. Does it help to have soul link
on the pet? Or will that burn my pet down too fast? If that's the
case, should I probably get another 60 SR from items and just keep a
VW out?

We had a lively discussion about this on our guild forum. All of the
warlocks agreed that it was incredibly stupid to use soul link, unless you
had healers keeping up the pet as well, which just doesn't make much sense.

I switched back to MD/ruin the other day, but not for this fight
specifically (mostly, because the respec was dirt cheap, and I've been
having a continuing war with our hunters and druids, who knock off our good
curses with stupid spells). MD gives you (AND your pet) an extra 60
resistance to everything, and even better, this resistance stacks with
MoTW, prayer of shadow resistance, AND gift of Arthas. We still didn't make
it to the fight yet (tonight for sure!), but I ran up a little test with my
shadow gear and all buffs, and I was at 340 (!). This means I can back off
some things I'd rather not wear like a green SR cloak and wear one of my
purples instead, which makes me happy.

Post by Lehi
Which Greater Protection pots should I drink prior to the fight?

I have to say, I am not a big fan of protection potions. In any fight where
you're getting concentrated damage of some type, the potion will generally
be burned through VERY quickly. The only good use for them is a) when the
damage phase starts up at a slightly hard to predict time, e.g. huhu at
30%, but never exactly what addons say is 30% (gulp a potion 10% early in
this situation), or b) if your main healer just bought it, and you need a
brief buffer while others are redeployed.

Post by Lehi
I've read a couple good strat pages and get slightly different
information, and don't feel I have a complete picture of what's
happening.

Watch a couple films - there a number of them around, often from a
warlock's PoV. *

--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Simon Nejmann

2006-11-09 20:14:54 UTC

The damage gets divided 50/50 between master and pet, right? By whos
stats does the damage get reduced, and when (before/after the spilt)?

If the damage always goes 50/50, and putting half on the pet doesn't
somehow create more than the original amount of damage (eg. master has
more damage reduction than pet), then Soul Link is pretty much just an
extra health buffer. That could be usefull - at least if the pet
doesn't suddently die to spike damage... How much health does a
Voidwalker or Fellhound have compared to the warlock?

Also, you should be able to park the pet out of the way - that means
that its healers won't have to dodge blizzards and exploding bugs, and
thus should generally have an easier time of it...

Then again, we don't use warlock tanks at all, so I'm just
theorycrafting here... But well, so is PV. :D

Post by Lehi
Which Greater Protection pots should I drink prior to the fight?

Mostly I agree with you, but you missed one thing - damage you may
take once in a while, but not in any predictable pattern.

As the warlock tank you will get pelted with shadowbolts whenever you
fight - drinking a Greater Protection pot for that is pretty much a
complete waste.
You could make some kind of case about chugging one instead of a
health pot if you get on very low health and need some emergency
healing - but that would be somewhat of a gamble...

However, he may randomly decide to drop a blizzard on you for ~1200
frost damage per tick - and that does not interrupt his shadowbolting,
it is not like the mages who have to stand there and channel (on the
good side, I don't believe that his blizzard has any minus movement
speed on it).

Note: Scrolling combat text or similar is _very_ helpfull there for
everybody that may get within range of the magic emp. If you run the
second you see that **Blizzard** text roll up over your head, you can
in many cases escape before you get hit by even the first tick. But if
you are unlucky, then you can take easily take a few thousand damage
from it.

He also randomly blows up bugs around him all the time - those hit for
~3k fire damage. Generally they are not that hard to avoid (even
though you only have 3 seconds from they get tagged to *boom*), but if
your attention goes somewhere else at the wrong time then you can
easily take a big hit there.
For example, running out of a blizzard and bumping into an exploding
bug instead.

Because of that it may be a good idea to swallow both a Greater Fire
and Frost Protection pot before the fight - in the best case both will
be completely wasted, but then again they might save your life by
negating some bad spike damage...

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

pv+ (PV)

2006-11-09 22:39:20 UTC

Post by Simon Nejmann
The damage gets divided 50/50 between master and pet, right? By whos
stats does the damage get reduced, and when (before/after the spilt)?

It's 30%. 30% of the damage that the warlock would have taken goes to the
pet instead. It's a straight health pool - the pet can't resist it, as
resist tests have already been performed.

Post by Simon Nejmann
If the damage always goes 50/50, and putting half on the pet doesn't
somehow create more than the original amount of damage (eg. master has
more damage reduction than pet), then Soul Link is pretty much just an
extra health buffer. That could be usefull - at least if the pet
doesn't suddently die to spike damage... How much health does a
Voidwalker or Fellhound have compared to the warlock?

Except that you're targeting two things for heals instead of one. This is
much more work. My felbeast has about 1800 health, and my voidwalker about
3000. Buffed, I'm running 6200 or so in my shadow gear.

Post by Simon Nejmann
Also, you should be able to park the pet out of the way - that means
that its healers won't have to dodge blizzards and exploding bugs, and
thus should generally have an easier time of it...

Maybe, but it's splitting effort for a pet.

Post by Simon Nejmann
Mostly I agree with you, but you missed one thing - damage you may
take once in a while, but not in any predictable pattern.

That's true, but in my opinion, since they're on the same cooldown, you're
probably better off with a healing potion than a resistance one. A healing
potion fills your tank up, but a protection potion only works against one
school of magic damage. What if you just took one (at low health), and then
the twins switch and you take some physical damage? Health potion - you had
a higher health level and might survive. Resist potion - none of the damage
is absorbed, and you die.

Post by Simon Nejmann
However, he may randomly decide to drop a blizzard on you for ~1200
frost damage per tick - and that does not interrupt his shadowbolting,
it is not like the mages who have to stand there and channel (on the
good side, I don't believe that his blizzard has any minus movement
speed on it).

Yup, that makes anything but a chromatic resistance potion even more
troublesome. It's not like shadow is the only source of damage in this
fight!

Post by Simon Nejmann
Because of that it may be a good idea to swallow both a Greater Fire
and Frost Protection pot before the fight - in the best case both will
be completely wasted, but then again they might save your life by
negating some bad spike damage...

That gets pretty expensive, and again it only swallows up a small amount of
damage before being used up. Based on this discussion I will probably push
for a paladin in my group that can put up a frost aura, that gives me 120
resist (actually more, my trinkets are multi-resistance), which should help
quite a bit. *

--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Dave

2006-11-07 09:20:28 UTC

Our Warlock has around 250ish SR, but we only use him for the pull to
get him into position.
The rest of the fight the caster is tanked by one of the 2 tanks (one of
them being me) with around 150-170 SR.

I honestly advise against the warlock tank tactic, its too much fiddling
around with proximity aggro and leaves too much space for mistakes.

Putting Warriors on whole-tanking duty is much easier in my opinion.
Like this we dropped the Twins on the 2nd serious try.

Simon Nejmann

2006-11-07 10:32:47 UTC

Post by Dave

We do the same.

Post by Dave
I honestly advise against the warlock tank tactic, its too much fiddling
around with proximity aggro and leaves too much space for mistakes.

Our problem was that the caster twin would go melee the warlock once
in a while - and that caster hits damn hard on cloth.

To see the problem for yourself, go fight a normal caster mob - engage
at range and he just stands there casting. But run up to him and he
will start meleeing you between casts - and if you are in melee and
try to run to range he will sometimes follow you while meleeing away.

On the melee->caster transition the warlock has to stand in melee
range, and then run away right after the teleport. But if he didn't
get far enough away during the teleport stun, then the caster brother
would chase and melee-smack him, which would normally result in a dead
warlock...

It was smply easier to just let a single warrior tank on each side
tank both twins.
The downside is that you don't get to dps so much on the caster, but
each mage can still do ~3-4k damage (I think) on him on each teleport
without drawing aggro.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

Dave

2006-11-07 10:43:36 UTC

Post by Simon Nejmann
The downside is that you don't get to dps so much on the caster, but
each mage can still do ~3-4k damage (I think) on him on each teleport
without drawing aggro.

Thats a realistic value.

We sorted out this problem by putting all mages and warlocks on the
bugs, nuking them down fast, while putting everybody else on the melee twin.
We also told mages and locks to use lower rank spells if they crit alot,
to throw at the caster twin inbetween when they have time.

We usually end up with around 2 minutes left before enrage.

pv+ (PV)

2006-11-07 14:56:07 UTC

Post by Simon Nejmann
On the melee->caster transition the warlock has to stand in melee
range, and then run away right after the teleport. But if he didn't
get far enough away during the teleport stun, then the caster brother
would chase and melee-smack him, which would normally result in a dead
warlock...

Not only that, but he has an arcane explosion like thing if you're too
close. I didn't get my chance to try last night, those damn guardians in
the tunnel turned out to be more annoying than Huhu was. *

--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Dave

2006-11-07 15:11:22 UTC

Post by pv+ (PV)
Not only that, but he has an arcane explosion like thing if you're too
close. I didn't get my chance to try last night, those damn guardians in
the tunnel turned out to be more annoying than Huhu was. *

Haha these trashmobs are harder then many a BWL Boss.
i still remember, after finally killing Huhu everyone was going like:
"Hey lets go watch the Twins"!

We couldn't have been more in for a surprise.

Well we eventually saw the Twins.

...2 weeks later ;)

Rene

2006-11-07 15:43:23 UTC

Post by Dave

Haha these trashmobs are harder then many a BWL Boss.
"Hey lets go watch the Twins"!
We couldn't have been more in for a surprise.
Well we eventually saw the Twins.
...2 weeks later ;)

Just wait for the trash AFTER the twins... *chuckles knowingly*

CU

René

Simon Nejmann

2006-11-07 16:26:50 UTC

Post by Rene
Just wait for the trash AFTER the twins... *chuckles knowingly*

Hmm? I thought that was pretty easy...

I mean, we can still get our asses kicked by the Anubisaths, but we
cleared all the Twins -> C'Thun trash the first time we got to it -
and without any wipes.
Were we just lucky, or?

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

Rene

2006-11-07 16:32:44 UTC

Post by Rene
Just wait for the trash AFTER the twins... *chuckles knowingly*

Hmm? I thought that was pretty easy...
I mean, we can still get our asses kicked by the Anubisaths, but we
cleared all the Twins -> C'Thun trash the first time we got to it -
and without any wipes.
Were we just lucky, or?

Well the compositions of the group afterwards is random. We got three
quad mindslayerpacks the first time. And then some nasty annubisath who
feared the people that should have been draining the destroyer. I find
the trash after the twins far more difficult. Sometimes it goes well if
there are lots of those mini-sarturas. But the mindslayers.. ow.. they
can hurt.

CU

René

Simon Nejmann

2006-11-07 17:56:47 UTC

Post by Rene
Well the compositions of the group afterwards is random. We got three
quad mindslayerpacks the first time.

We had a good few of those packs as well.

Post by Rene
And then some nasty annubisath who
feared the people that should have been draining the destroyer.

Just tank the Anubisath far away from the raid and the Obsidian
Nullifiers, then it is just a question of draining and killing fast
enough.

Post by Rene
But the mindslayers.. ow.. they can hurt.

Aye, they do - but then we figured out to assign healers to the mobs
instead of to the tanks. The mindslayers will either attack a tank, or
mindflay a random target - never both at the same time. So if the
healers just keep their mob targeted and heals the mob's target, then
they dramatically go down in hurtfullness...

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

Rene

2006-11-08 07:39:06 UTC

Post by Rene
Well the compositions of the group afterwards is random. We got three
quad mindslayerpacks the first time.

We had a good few of those packs as well.

Post by Rene
And then some nasty annubisath who
feared the people that should have been draining the destroyer.

Just tank the Anubisath far away from the raid and the Obsidian
Nullifiers, then it is just a question of draining and killing fast
enough.

Yeah we know. However if you get a fear 10 seconds after the pull and
about 5 seconds into the fight (we generally pull from a distance) -
then it's simply already game over.

Though we made it once even after one of the obsidans got off and
reduced everyone's HP to 1.

Post by Rene
But the mindslayers.. ow.. they can hurt.

Hm we try to shield and renew the mindflay targets primarily, which
reduced death rate significantly. Going to try out this one though next
time.

CU

René

Dave

2006-11-09 09:28:33 UTC

Post by Rene
Just wait for the trash AFTER the twins... *chuckles knowingly*

Hmm? I thought that was pretty easy...

Yeah same here. pre Cthun Trash was a walk in the park compared to the
trash before Twins, at least for us, YMMV :)

Rene

2006-11-09 10:20:56 UTC

Post by Dave