Is Soulfire the "opener" for Warlocks?

[Peter Knutsen]

My Warlock just dinged 48 and got rank 1 Soulfire. Is that the combat
opener for the class, meaning an attack spell that takes a long time to
cast but does a lot of damage, and tends to have a good mana economy and
to be used almost exclusively as the first cast because it has too low
DPS for regular use?

That is, is it meant to be similar to the Druid's Starfire, and to the
Fire Mage spell whose name I've forgotten, the one that's really slow to
cast?

The reason I ask is that it comes so late in the game. The Druid got
Starfire much earlier, and the Talent to unlock the slow Fire Mage spell
was also available fairly early, maybe level 30 or so. Soulfired is not
Talent-based and comes late, at level 48. So I'm thinking maybe its
intended tactical purpose is something else.

[Devast8or]

Post by Peter Knutsen
My Warlock just dinged 48 and got rank 1 Soulfire. Is that the combat
opener for the class, meaning an attack spell that takes a long time to
cast but does a lot of damage, and tends to have a good mana economy and
to be used almost exclusively as the first cast because it has too low DPS
for regular use?
That is, is it meant to be similar to the Druid's Starfire, and to the
Fire Mage spell whose name I've forgotten, the one that's really slow to
cast?
The reason I ask is that it comes so late in the game. The Druid got
Starfire much earlier, and the Talent to unlock the slow Fire Mage spell
was also available fairly early, maybe level 30 or so. Soulfired is not
Talent-based and comes late, at level 48. So I'm thinking maybe its
intended tactical purpose is something else.

The problem with using soulfire regularly is that it requires a soul shard
for each cast. You will run out of shards quickly if you use it as your main
attack spell. Back in vanilla (and TBC as well I think) it had a cooldown,
but this was removed. That may be why it seems odd to get it so late.
Frankly, I can't remember if it was used much in vanilla/TBC - maybe for
pvp... not sure :)

Currently, Soulfire is used by demonology warlocks. You will get a talent
that will give you a buff whenever you cast a spell at a target below 35%
health. This buff will let you cast Soulfire without the cost of a shard.
The buff is refreshed as long as your target is under 35% health. This means
that a demonology warlock will switch from Shadowbolt to Soulfire as his
filler spell whenever the mobs are under 35%. It's a huge dps boost.

Devast8or

[Shiflet]

Post by Devast8or
Currently, Soulfire is used by demonology warlocks. You will get a talent
that will give you a buff whenever you cast a spell at a target below 35%
health. This buff will let you cast Soulfire without the cost of a shard.

Also lets it cast 40% faster.

Post by Devast8or
The buff is refreshed as long as your target is under 35% health. This
means that a demonology warlock will switch from Shadowbolt to Soulfire as
his filler spell whenever the mobs are under 35%. It's a huge dps boost.

Yeah, assuming your tank can hold the aggro, it's a blast to see 3 casts in
6 seconds that go like this:18k, 22k, 20k(those numbers are from an actual
HCoS run I was in, heh)

Post by Devast8or
Devast8or

[Devast8or]

Post by Shiflet

Post by Devast8or
Currently, Soulfire is used by demonology warlocks. You will get a talent
that will give you a buff whenever you cast a spell at a target below 35%
health. This buff will let you cast Soulfire without the cost of a shard.

Also lets it cast 40% faster.

Oh nice, I missed that bit. I only just took it for offspec a short while
ago :P

Post by Shiflet

Post by Devast8or
The buff is refreshed as long as your target is under 35% health. This
means that a demonology warlock will switch from Shadowbolt to Soulfire
as his filler spell whenever the mobs are under 35%. It's a huge dps
boost.

Yeah, assuming your tank can hold the aggro, it's a blast to see 3 casts
in 6 seconds that go like this:18k, 22k, 20k(those numbers are from an
actual HCoS run I was in, heh)

I'm sure he can - I only raid on my warlock, so it's the same tank
everytime. And since demonology is a bit slow in the dps at first, they have
ample time to get ahead on the threat meter.

As for the size of the hits, the best I remember doing was 57k - but that
was on BQL after having been bitten :P But casting SF of that size with a
52% critrating was kinda nice. Still, I prefer sticking to destruction when
I can.

Devast8or

[Shiflet]

Post by Devast8or
I'm sure he can - I only raid on my warlock, so it's the same tank
everytime. And since demonology is a bit slow in the dps at first, they
have ample time to get ahead on the threat meter.

They don't get started as quickly as destro, aye.

Post by Devast8or
As for the size of the hits, the best I remember doing was 57k

My highest was 25k in a VoA(which is the only raiding I do).

Post by Devast8or
Still, I prefer sticking to destruction when I can.

For regular play I prefer demo. I PvP as destro though, where it's higher
burstiness is more useful.

Post by Devast8or
Devast8or

[Shiflet]

Post by Peter Knutsen
The reason I ask is that it comes so late in the game. The Druid got
Starfire much earlier, and the Talent to unlock the slow Fire Mage spell
was also available fairly early, maybe level 30 or so. Soulfired is not
Talent-based and comes late, at level 48. So I'm thinking maybe its
intended tactical purpose is something else.

Warlocks don't really use Soulfire, ever, unless they're demo locks.

With 2/2 in the demo talent Decimation, whenever your Shadow Bolt,
Incinerate, or Soulfire hits an enemy at 35% or lower health, you get a 10
second buff that makes Soulfire cast 40% faster and cost no soul shard. So
basically, you follow your normal rotation until the enemy hits 35% health,
then you become a Soulfire spammer until the enemy dies. Since the buff
lasts 10 seconds, it's possible it will still be up after a mob dies and you
switch to a new target, in which case, you continue to use it until the buff
is down, then resume normal rotation. They also have the Molten Core talent,
which increases Soulfire's damage by 18% and crit chance by 15% while it's
active. Since demo locks also take 5/5 Bane, and stack haste, they can turn
Soulfire into an extremely efficient finishing spell with Decimation up,
even moreso if MC procs(my demo lock has his soulfire at roughly a 2 second
cast with Decimation active, and if MC also procs, it has around a 45% crit
chance).

Other specs don't need Soulfire, cause for aff locks, you'll be killing
faster by just running around dotting up multiple mobs, and for destro
locks, you can cast Immolate AND Conflagrate in the time it takes to cast 1
Soulfire, and you'll generally get more damage just doing it that way.

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by Shiflet

Post by Peter Knutsen
The reason I ask is that it comes so late in the game. The Druid got
Starfire much earlier, and the Talent to unlock the slow Fire Mage spell
was also available fairly early, maybe level 30 or so. Soulfired is not
Talent-based and comes late, at level 48. So I'm thinking maybe its
intended tactical purpose is something else.

Warlocks don't really use Soulfire, ever, unless they're demo locks.

[...]

I am a demo lock, with a little bit of Affliction thrown in (I think 9 TPs).

WoWwiki says to use Soul Fire to pull, which is basically the same I
meant when I wrote "use it as an opener", but I tried doing it and it
works rather badly.

My normal routine was to start with Curse of Agony (glyph-prolonged),
then Destruction, then Incinerate, and that works well. (What I do after
Incinerate varies a bit, but I'll often end with Soul Drain to replenish
my mana and shards.)

After getting Soul fire I tried using first Soul Fire, then CoA, then
Destruction, then Incinerate, but that means the mob has 100% aggro on
me for the entire fight, which is quite unpleasant.

So is WoWwiki exceedingly wrong in its advice, in this case? I've
certainly gone back to my old routine because it is one that works,
building damage slowly so that my VoidWalker has time to get strong aggro.

[Shiflet]

Post by Peter Knutsen
I am a demo lock, with a little bit of Affliction thrown in (I think 9 TPs).

You're gimping your damage that way, but that's your call. The top dps spec
for demo is 56/15 demo/destro, FYI.

Post by Peter Knutsen
WoWwiki says to use Soul Fire to pull, which is basically the same I meant
when I wrote "use it as an opener", but I tried doing it and it works
rather badly.

WoWwiki is horribly out of date on many things.

Post by Peter Knutsen
My normal routine was to start with Curse of Agony (glyph-prolonged),

Corruption is much, much better than Curse of Agony. Max level demo locks
don't use CoA at all, except occasionally in PvP(to tag someone running past
or to cast on someone you're chasing and can't stop to cast a shadowbolt) or
when soloing big elites.

Post by Peter Knutsen
then Destruction

Uhh, what? There is no lock spell called Destruction. You mean Immolate?

Post by Peter Knutsen
, then Incinerate, and that works well. (What I do after Incinerate varies
a bit, but I'll often end with Soul Drain to replenish my mana and shards.)

Shadowbolt>Incinerate for demo, except when Molten Core is up.

Post by Peter Knutsen
So is WoWwiki exceedingly wrong in its advice, in this case? I've
certainly gone back to my old routine because it is one that works,
building damage slowly so that my VoidWalker has time to get strong aggro.

Why are you using a voidwalker as a demo lock? Didn't you say you were level
48? You should be using felguard by now. It hits harder than the shitty
voidwalker, and it builds aggro better too. Using it+corruption+shadowbolt,
the mob will be dead before it gets near you, and aggro concern is basically
100% irrelevant except vs elites.

[Steve Kaye]

Post by Shiflet

Post by Peter Knutsen
So is WoWwiki exceedingly wrong in its advice, in this case? I've
certainly gone back to my old routine because it is one that works,
building damage slowly so that my VoidWalker has time to get strong aggro.

Why are you using a voidwalker as a demo lock? Didn't you say you were level
48? You should be using felguard by now. It hits harder than the shitty
voidwalker, and it builds aggro better too. Using it+corruption+shadowbolt,
the mob will be dead before it gets near you, and aggro concern is basically
100% irrelevant except vs elites.

You need to be level 59 before you can use the Felguard if you spend 9
points in another tree.

steve.kaye

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Peter Knutsen
I am a demo lock, with a little bit of Affliction thrown in (I think 9 TPs).
WoWwiki says to use Soul Fire to pull, which is basically the same I
meant when I wrote "use it as an opener", but I tried doing it and it
works rather badly.

Wow, that is incredibly bad advice. Why the HELL would they have you do
something that is guaranteed to make it hard for your pet to grab aggro
back, when using a spec that majors in pets?

Post by Peter Knutsen
My normal routine was to start with Curse of Agony (glyph-prolonged),
then Destruction, then Incinerate, and that works well. (What I do after
Incinerate varies a bit, but I'll often end with Soul Drain to replenish
my mana and shards.)

If by destruction you meant corruption, I would do those two spells in the
opposite order (corruption is instant for everyone now), but other than
that you're fine. Some people do advocate using agony first because it
ramps up in damage and so the first few ticks won't mess up your pet's
tanking, but since I don't want my pet tanking, I don't do it that way.

Post by Peter Knutsen
After getting Soul fire I tried using first Soul Fire, then CoA, then
Destruction, then Incinerate, but that means the mob has 100% aggro on
me for the entire fight, which is quite unpleasant.

Yep. It's almost like someone WANTS you to die with that suggestion. *

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
I am a demo lock, with a little bit of Affliction thrown in (I think 9 TPs).
WoWwiki says to use Soul Fire to pull, which is basically the same I
meant when I wrote "use it as an opener", but I tried doing it and it
works rather badly.

Wow, that is incredibly bad advice. Why the HELL would they have you do
something that is guaranteed to make it hard for your pet to grab aggro
back, when using a spec that majors in pets?

Might be old advice that was once sound.

WoWwiki also claims that the elixir or potion of Major FirePower adds to
fire spellpower only, whereas in-game (and ThottBot) correctly says it
adds to *all* spellpower.

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
My normal routine was to start with Curse of Agony (glyph-prolonged),
then Destruction, then Incinerate, and that works well. (What I do after
Incinerate varies a bit, but I'll often end with Soul Drain to replenish
my mana and shards.)

If by destruction you meant corruption, I would do those two spells in the
opposite order (corruption is instant for everyone now), but other than
that you're fine. Some people do advocate using agony first because it
ramps up in damage and so the first few ticks won't mess up your pet's
tanking, but since I don't want my pet tanking, I don't do it that way.

I'm not always good at remembering spell names. Sorry.

The first one I use is the back-loaded shadow-flavoured DoT. Starts
slow, ends up doing a lot of damage per tick for the last ticks.

The second is a steady DoT, also shadow-flavoured.

The third is the fire-flavoured DoT, which is front-loaded.


Why swap around the first two, though? Both are instant-cast, and I like
starting with the one that begins with low damage ticks then builds up.
It also lasts longer than the others, even if not glyph-enhanced (IIRC),
making it more sensible to cast as the first. What's your reason for
Corruption first?

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
After getting Soul fire I tried using first Soul Fire, then CoA, then
Destruction, then Incinerate, but that means the mob has 100% aggro on
me for the entire fight, which is quite unpleasant.

Yep. It's almost like someone WANTS you to die with that suggestion. *

I was mostly curious about the purpose of the spell, so I tried follow
the advice from WoWwiki in a couple of cases, but the spectacularly bad
results helped me learn real fast.

[Shiflet]

Post by Peter Knutsen
WoWwiki also claims that the elixir or potion of Major FirePower adds to
fire spellpower only, whereas in-game (and ThottBot) correctly says it
adds to *all* spellpower.

As I said, WoWwiki is terribly outdated on many things.

Post by Peter Knutsen
The first one I use is the back-loaded shadow-flavoured DoT. Starts slow,
ends up doing a lot of damage per tick for the last ticks.

That's Curse of Agony. And the fact of the matter is, it's "lot of damage
per tick for the last few ticks" is STILL lower damage per tick than
Corruption deals every single tick.

Post by Peter Knutsen
The second is a steady DoT, also shadow-flavoured.

That's Corruption.

Post by Peter Knutsen
The third is the fire-flavoured DoT, which is front-loaded.

Immolate.

Post by Peter Knutsen
Why swap around the first two, though? Both are instant-cast, and I like
starting with the one that begins with low damage ticks then builds up. It
also lasts longer than the others

If anything outside of an elite, raid boss, or dungeon boss is living long
enough for it to reach the end of even a non-glyped CoA, you're doing
something terribly wrong.

[Steve Kaye]

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
I am a demo lock, with a little bit of Affliction thrown in (I think 9 TPs).
WoWwiki says to use Soul Fire to pull, which is basically the same I
meant when I wrote "use it as an opener", but I tried doing it and it
works rather badly.

Wow, that is incredibly bad advice. Why the HELL would they have you do
something that is guaranteed to make it hard for your pet to grab aggro
back, when using a spec that majors in pets?

Might be old advice that was once sound.

My guess is that a Mage wrote that. They saw a spell that seemed to be
exactly like Pyroblast, so they assumed that it was used in the same
way. A Mage doesn't have a tanking pet so it would be better to cast it
first (whilst soloing) to save the huge cast time.

I can't see that casting Soulfire first was ever sound advice.

Post by Peter Knutsen
WoWwiki also claims that the elixir or potion of Major FirePower adds to
fire spellpower only, whereas in-game (and ThottBot) correctly says it
adds to *all* spellpower.

If you want, you can edit wowwiki when you see errors like that.

steve.kaye

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by Peter Knutsen
Might be old advice that was once sound.

My guess is that a Mage wrote that. They saw a spell that seemed to be
exactly like Pyroblast, so they assumed that it was used in the same
way. A Mage doesn't have a tanking pet so it would be better to cast it
first (whilst soloing) to save the huge cast time.

That makes sense. It's what I assumed, based on my experience playing a
Fire Mage and a Balance Druid.

I can't see that casting Soulfire first was ever sound advice.

Maybe late in combat if my VoidWalker is nearly dead and up against a
couple of mobs, or something like that.

Post by Peter Knutsen
WoWwiki also claims that the elixir or potion of Major FirePower adds to
fire spellpower only, whereas in-game (and ThottBot) correctly says it
adds to *all* spellpower.

If you want, you can edit wowwiki when you see errors like that.

I'd have to go through the trouble of registrering and so forth, and I'm
too lazy for that.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by pv+ (PV)
Wow, that is incredibly bad advice. Why the HELL would they have you do
something that is guaranteed to make it hard for your pet to grab aggro
back, when using a spec that majors in pets?

Might be old advice that was once sound.

I've been playing a warlock since vanilla. It was never good advice, in
fact it was probably WORSE advice before LK - it wasn't until the
demonology redesign that it was even a slightly useful spell. The only time
I can remember using it was when tanking the dragon boss in Karazhan - it
was kind of hilarious with the huge damage buff you got. That and curses of
doom that went off in the mid 5 figures...

Post by Peter Knutsen
WoWwiki also claims that the elixir or potion of Major FirePower adds to
fire spellpower only, whereas in-game (and ThottBot) correctly says it
adds to *all* spellpower.

That is indeed due to a change.

Post by Peter Knutsen
The first one I use is the back-loaded shadow-flavoured DoT. Starts
slow, ends up doing a lot of damage per tick for the last ticks.

Agony.

Post by Peter Knutsen
The second is a steady DoT, also shadow-flavoured.

Corruption.

Post by Peter Knutsen
The third is the fire-flavoured DoT, which is front-loaded.

Immolate. Watch out though - two of the dots are mutually exclusive. I on't
think it's corruption and immolate, I think it's unstable affliction, but
I've been affliction for so long that I don't even think about using fire
spells anymore.

Post by Peter Knutsen
Why swap around the first two, though? Both are instant-cast, and I like
starting with the one that begins with low damage ticks then builds up.
It also lasts longer than the others, even if not glyph-enhanced (IIRC),
making it more sensible to cast as the first. What's your reason for
Corruption first?

Well, in my case, if I'm soloing I'm drain tanking, so I don't want mobs
beating on my pets, so front loading is irrelevant. Also, nothing much
lives long enough for agony to run its course in the first place when we're
talking about out in the world nonelite mobs. I do put up agony in my
mindless farming macro, but mostly so it's on the stuff I'm NOT attacking
at the moment, so when I switch to them they're nearly dead from the two
dots together.

Post by Peter Knutsen
I was mostly curious about the purpose of the spell, so I tried follow
the advice from WoWwiki in a couple of cases, but the spectacularly bad
results helped me learn real fast.

Well, then maybe it's good for something ... soulfire does have a place,
just not for all specs, not all the time even then, and certainly NOT as a
pulling spell. DoTs are ideal for pulling. You always want an instant cast,
no travel time spell for pulling stuff, especially one that doesn't do much
initial damage. Throwing a soulfire is like a mage opening with a barrage
of arcane missiles or a pyro. Avoid. *

[Catriona R]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
The third is the fire-flavoured DoT, which is front-loaded.

Immolate. Watch out though - two of the dots are mutually exclusive. I on't
think it's corruption and immolate, I think it's unstable affliction, but
I've been affliction for so long that I don't even think about using fire
spells anymore.

It's unstable affliction and immolate - I discovered that playing with
my lvl 70 affliction warlock at a target dummy the other day - they
weren't exclusive in TBC so I had both on my actionbars, discovered I
could just bin immolate and use haunt instead :-) Having a feeling
I'll end up levelling that lock soon, remembering how much fun it was
- no clue where I'm gonna find the time though!

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
Why swap around the first two, though? Both are instant-cast, and I like
starting with the one that begins with low damage ticks then builds up.
It also lasts longer than the others, even if not glyph-enhanced (IIRC),
making it more sensible to cast as the first. What's your reason for
Corruption first?

Well, in my case, if I'm soloing I'm drain tanking, so I don't want mobs
beating on my pets, so front loading is irrelevant. Also, nothing much
lives long enough for agony to run its course in the first place when we're
talking about out in the world nonelite mobs. I do put up agony in my
mindless farming macro, but mostly so it's on the stuff I'm NOT attacking
at the moment, so when I switch to them they're nearly dead from the two
dots together.

Yeah I'm suspecting when I begin to level that I won't use agony much,
may chuck elements up instead if I want a curse up, rather than just
tabbing to the next mob, that'll likely contribute more damage! 10% on
UA and Corruption seems good compared with the very low ticks in the
beginning of CoA, and I very much doubt anything will live close to 24
sec.

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
I was mostly curious about the purpose of the spell, so I tried follow
the advice from WoWwiki in a couple of cases, but the spectacularly bad
results helped me learn real fast.

Well, then maybe it's good for something ... soulfire does have a place,
just not for all specs, not all the time even then, and certainly NOT as a
pulling spell. DoTs are ideal for pulling. You always want an instant cast,
no travel time spell for pulling stuff, especially one that doesn't do much
initial damage. Throwing a soulfire is like a mage opening with a barrage
of arcane missiles or a pyro. Avoid. *

Is it always better to use instant cast? I'd personally rather pull
with a cast time dot (probably UA, followed by Haunt), but perhaps
that's from habit of always pulling with the longest cast time (which
obviously means less time of the mob beating on me while I cast
something slow, which I could've just cast when it wasn't aggroed!)
Given both are 1.5 sec base time, I suppose that's not such a
consideration though.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Catriona R
Is it always better to use instant cast? I'd personally rather pull
with a cast time dot (probably UA, followed by Haunt), but perhaps
that's from habit of always pulling with the longest cast time (which
obviously means less time of the mob beating on me while I cast
something slow, which I could've just cast when it wasn't aggroed!)
Given both are 1.5 sec base time, I suppose that's not such a
consideration though.

The key here is that a pulling spell shouldn't pull much threat. DoTs are
perfect because they piss off the mob immediately, but don't do any damage
for a few seconds, so if you actually want to pet tank, or simply want to
get your rotation unloaded when in a group, you can safely cast them where
a spell with a cast bar will waste time and generally does immediate
damage. *

[Catriona R]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
Is it always better to use instant cast? I'd personally rather pull
with a cast time dot (probably UA, followed by Haunt), but perhaps
that's from habit of always pulling with the longest cast time (which
obviously means less time of the mob beating on me while I cast
something slow, which I could've just cast when it wasn't aggroed!)
Given both are 1.5 sec base time, I suppose that's not such a
consideration though.

The key here is that a pulling spell shouldn't pull much threat. DoTs are
perfect because they piss off the mob immediately, but don't do any damage
for a few seconds, so if you actually want to pet tank, or simply want to
get your rotation unloaded when in a group, you can safely cast them where
a spell with a cast bar will waste time and generally does immediate
damage. *

Makes sense, I'm more thinking of opening with UA that doesn't cause
initial damage anyway. I've been opening with Haunt for the few mobs
I've killed in Northrend so far, for the damage buff, but good point
about the initial damage thing in groups - I guess doing that 2nd
after UA means I'll still have the damage buff up before the first UA
tick and won't hit with damage instantly. Using imp as pet atm so
really don't want it tanking anyway lol.

(Yes, I know you swear by the succubus but... crap gear = could kinda
use the stamina buff atm, my health is THAT low. My target dummy
testing did show me I don't need to rely on Dark Pact like I did in
TBC though; between fel armor and haunt I can easily afford to eat the
health loss from lifetap, so it's not so necessary to use a high mana
regen pet like it was in TBC. Felhunter looks interesting too with its
shadow bite ability, suspect I'll try him before the succubus unless
succubus is massively better, since I really really dislike her :-P)

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Catriona R
Makes sense, I'm more thinking of opening with UA that doesn't cause
initial damage anyway. I've been opening with Haunt for the few mobs
I've killed in Northrend so far, for the damage buff, but good point
about the initial damage thing in groups - I guess doing that 2nd
after UA means I'll still have the damage buff up before the first UA
tick and won't hit with damage instantly. Using imp as pet atm so
really don't want it tanking anyway lol.

Another thing about pulling, (assuming you really want just one mob which
I almost never do) is that you're usually timing things so that one of the
mobs is in the proper position so he doesn't grab his buddies. If you cast
a spell with a cast bar, you have to take that timing into account. It's
also a bad move if you're in a camped area - someone will happily steal
your mob while you're winding up a spell.

Post by Catriona R
(Yes, I know you swear by the succubus but... crap gear = could kinda
use the stamina buff atm, my health is THAT low. My target dummy

Succubus is right out nowadays. There's a talent in affliction that scales
felhound damage such that they outdamage succubi considerably (like 10 or
more percent considerably), and they're also a little more durable because
of their high innate resistances. Also, spell lock RULES now that the AI
isn't stupid. My favorite raid thing is watching caster mobs run to us
because their first cast gets eaten by my felhound. And then I discovered
recently that devouring bite eats the ghost wolf buff, which occasionally
leads to hilarity when a shaman can't figure out why it keeps
disappearing... loving the dog right now.

Post by Catriona R
testing did show me I don't need to rely on Dark Pact like I did in
TBC though; between fel armor and haunt I can easily afford to eat the
health loss from lifetap, so it's not so necessary to use a high mana
regen pet like it was in TBC. Felhunter looks interesting too with its

Felhunters don't ever seem to run out of mana, probably because they're
always eating spells. Pets in general are so much more durable than they
used to be.

Post by Catriona R
shadow bite ability, suspect I'll try him before the succubus unless
succubus is massively better, since I really really dislike her :-P)

In terms of sheer style I like the succubus because she appears out of
nowhere when you sic her on someone, but poor Jhorxia's been in the stable
since Uldaur came out, which, er, is probably fine with her. *

[Catriona R]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
Makes sense, I'm more thinking of opening with UA that doesn't cause
initial damage anyway. I've been opening with Haunt for the few mobs
I've killed in Northrend so far, for the damage buff, but good point
about the initial damage thing in groups - I guess doing that 2nd
after UA means I'll still have the damage buff up before the first UA
tick and won't hit with damage instantly. Using imp as pet atm so
really don't want it tanking anyway lol.

Another thing about pulling, (assuming you really want just one mob which
I almost never do) is that you're usually timing things so that one of the
mobs is in the proper position so he doesn't grab his buddies. If you cast
a spell with a cast bar, you have to take that timing into account. It's
also a bad move if you're in a camped area - someone will happily steal
your mob while you're winding up a spell.

Yeah true, I always did adjust for those situations though - I'm not
saying I rigidly use the same rotation no matter the situation, just
what I'd do in a fairly standard one :-)

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
(Yes, I know you swear by the succubus but... crap gear = could kinda
use the stamina buff atm, my health is THAT low. My target dummy

Succubus is right out nowadays. There's a talent in affliction that scales
felhound damage such that they outdamage succubi considerably (like 10 or
more percent considerably), and they're also a little more durable because
of their high innate resistances. Also, spell lock RULES now that the AI
isn't stupid. My favorite raid thing is watching caster mobs run to us
because their first cast gets eaten by my felhound. And then I discovered
recently that devouring bite eats the ghost wolf buff, which occasionally
leads to hilarity when a shaman can't figure out why it keeps
disappearing... loving the dog right now.

Wait... what? The felhound actually automatically uses spell lock when
the mob is *casting*? Always had to just use it manually in the past
since autocast was useless! Ok great, with the extra damage too,
felhound it is for me (um, once I've got a little more health...
tanking mobs myself with only 7k is a touch risky unless I lose the
habit of chainpulling for a bit...! That 1k or so the imp gives me is
kinda useful until I get my total up a touch)

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
testing did show me I don't need to rely on Dark Pact like I did in
TBC though; between fel armor and haunt I can easily afford to eat the
health loss from lifetap, so it's not so necessary to use a high mana
regen pet like it was in TBC. Felhunter looks interesting too with its

Felhunters don't ever seem to run out of mana, probably because they're
always eating spells. Pets in general are so much more durable than they
used to be.

Great! I remember in the past, the imp was the only pet I could use
with Dark Pact, since all others were oom, and even with him I usually
had to not let him attack anything. But now I won't need Dark Pact so
much anyway, and if the felhunter regens mana nicely, it won't hurt as
much when I do use it (like if health's getting low already and I
rather not tap a chunk more) Seems a lot of good things have changed
then :-)

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
shadow bite ability, suspect I'll try him before the succubus unless
succubus is massively better, since I really really dislike her :-P)

In terms of sheer style I like the succubus because she appears out of
nowhere when you sic her on someone, but poor Jhorxia's been in the stable
since Uldaur came out, which, er, is probably fine with her. *

Hehe. I've never been a great fan of them, I guess being female I'm
not too likely to find them attractive somehow! They're amusing to
encounter as mobs, but I don't want one as my permanent companion if I
can avoid it... the voices are damn annoying too.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Catriona R
Wait... what? The felhound actually automatically uses spell lock when
the mob is *casting*? Always had to just use it manually in the past
since autocast was useless! Ok great, with the extra damage too,

Yes, it does! In pvp you may still want to keep it on manual so it's there
when you really need it, but against mobs it automatically goes off the
first time a mob tries to cast a spell after the felhound is targeted on
them. It's amazingly useful, even in raids.

Post by Catriona R
Great! I remember in the past, the imp was the only pet I could use
with Dark Pact, since all others were oom, and even with him I usually
had to not let him attack anything. But now I won't need Dark Pact so
much anyway, and if the felhunter regens mana nicely, it won't hurt as
much when I do use it (like if health's getting low already and I
rather not tap a chunk more) Seems a lot of good things have changed
then :-)

The warlock class was pretty badly broken until the patch that brought in
Uldaur, but we've been in great shape since then. Heck, even demonology
isn't useless anymore - we have a demo warlock as a regular raider, and the
damage boost to the group as a whole is very noticeable, and they do decent
damage too.

As for dark pact - I haven't had it in a long time, because I use glyph of
lifetap (and I also have a point in improved lifetap), so I'm never really
short of mana. A soloer can also have improved drain soul, so that you
get a big slug of mana back when a mob dies to it. Warlocks, played well,
are about health management, not mana management. Mana is just a buffer.

Post by Catriona R
Hehe. I've never been a great fan of them, I guess being female I'm
not too likely to find them attractive somehow! They're amusing to
encounter as mobs, but I don't want one as my permanent companion if I
can avoid it... the voices are damn annoying too.

I love her voice, but she is a bit distracting to have out, that's for
sure. *

[Catriona R]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
Wait... what? The felhound actually automatically uses spell lock when
the mob is *casting*? Always had to just use it manually in the past
since autocast was useless! Ok great, with the extra damage too,

Yes, it does! In pvp you may still want to keep it on manual so it's there
when you really need it, but against mobs it automatically goes off the
first time a mob tries to cast a spell after the felhound is targeted on
them. It's amazingly useful, even in raids.

Sounds great! I certainly don't remember it doing that before, should
be very useful now! :-)

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
Great! I remember in the past, the imp was the only pet I could use
with Dark Pact, since all others were oom, and even with him I usually
had to not let him attack anything. But now I won't need Dark Pact so
much anyway, and if the felhunter regens mana nicely, it won't hurt as
much when I do use it (like if health's getting low already and I
rather not tap a chunk more) Seems a lot of good things have changed
then :-)

The warlock class was pretty badly broken until the patch that brought in
Uldaur, but we've been in great shape since then. Heck, even demonology
isn't useless anymore - we have a demo warlock as a regular raider, and the
damage boost to the group as a whole is very noticeable, and they do decent
damage too.
As for dark pact - I haven't had it in a long time, because I use glyph of
lifetap (and I also have a point in improved lifetap), so I'm never really
short of mana. A soloer can also have improved drain soul, so that you
get a big slug of mana back when a mob dies to it. Warlocks, played well,
are about health management, not mana management. Mana is just a buffer.

Changed a fair bit then, I used to have imp drain soul *and* dark pact
- having done a little target dummy testing I can see I may well not
need dark pact any more since I seem to have a lot more selfhealing
than I used to, so lifetap isn't such a problem to use - and yes I
have that glyphed, so will obviously want to use it at least some of
the time anyway.

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
Hehe. I've never been a great fan of them, I guess being female I'm
not too likely to find them attractive somehow! They're amusing to
encounter as mobs, but I don't want one as my permanent companion if I
can avoid it... the voices are damn annoying too.

I love her voice, but she is a bit distracting to have out, that's for
sure. *

Hehe distracting to men I'm sure, just plain annoying to me ;-)

[Miikka]

Post by pv+ (PV)
As for dark pact - I haven't had it in a long time, because I use glyph of
lifetap (and I also have a point in improved lifetap), so I'm never really
short of mana.

I'm pretty sure that they patched the glyph to proc on Dark Pact too, though
as affliction you're healing yourself so much that you can pretty much keep
all the mana you need by just life tapping occasionally. :)

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Miikka
I'm pretty sure that they patched the glyph to proc on Dark Pact too, though
as affliction you're healing yourself so much that you can pretty much keep
all the mana you need by just life tapping occasionally. :)

Yup. There are so many ways we get health back that it's hard to keep track
of them all. *

[Miikka]

Post by Catriona R

Post by pv+ (PV)
In terms of sheer style I like the succubus because she appears out of
nowhere when you sic her on someone, but poor Jhorxia's been in the stable
since Uldaur came out, which, er, is probably fine with her. *

Hehe. I've never been a great fan of them, I guess being female I'm
not too likely to find them attractive somehow! They're amusing to
encounter as mobs, but I don't want one as my permanent companion if I
can avoid it... the voices are damn annoying too.

I guess we really could use an incubus for all female warlocks. :)

[Catriona R]

Post by Miikka

Post by Catriona R

Post by pv+ (PV)
In terms of sheer style I like the succubus because she appears out of
nowhere when you sic her on someone, but poor Jhorxia's been in the stable
since Uldaur came out, which, er, is probably fine with her. *

Hehe. I've never been a great fan of them, I guess being female I'm
not too likely to find them attractive somehow! They're amusing to
encounter as mobs, but I don't want one as my permanent companion if I
can avoid it... the voices are damn annoying too.

I guess we really could use an incubus for all female warlocks. :)

Lol not a bad idea! Although my affliction warlock is actually male
anyway... still don't like the succubus even with him though ;-)

[Shiflet]

Post by Catriona R
(Yes, I know you swear by the succubus

Nobody uses Succubus except in PvP anymore(and even then, most PvP locks run
felhunter regardless of spec). For PvE, aff locks use felhunter, destro
locks use imp, and demo of course use their felguard.

Post by Catriona R
Felhunter looks interesting too with its
shadow bite ability, suspect I'll try him before the succubus unless
succubus is massively better, since I really really dislike her :-P)

Succubus isn't better in ANY way outside of PvP these days.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Shiflet

Post by Catriona R
Felhunter looks interesting too with its
shadow bite ability, suspect I'll try him before the succubus unless
succubus is massively better, since I really really dislike her :-P)

Succubus isn't better in ANY way outside of PvP these days.

The scale has shifted a couple times in the past few expansions. What you
say is right for most but not all of LK, but before that, succubi were the
definitive drain tanking pet.

I don't think the poor succubus has any role at all right now, short of an
extra crowd control that you might use in very limited situations. A seduce
ambush in pvp, for example, is nice for tying up a single attacker in AB
while you finish capping a flag, since you don't have to stop what you're
doing to cast it. The felhunter on the other hand, is a freaking swiss army
knife right now. It's nice to have a pet that pvp opponents are actually
afraid of again, and is fire and forget in pve. The AI may be a little
*too* smart right now, since it always seems to do what I want in terms of
picking the right target and sticking with it. They're pretty fun to watch
during a big trash fight. *

[Shiflet]

Post by pv+ (PV)
The scale has shifted a couple times in the past few expansions. What you
say is right for most but not all of LK, but before that, succubi were the
definitive drain tanking pet.

Yes, I was only referring to the current state of the game, not ones that
have been rendered obsolete.

Post by pv+ (PV)
I don't think the poor succubus has any role at all right now, short of an
extra crowd control that you might use in very limited situations. A seduce
ambush in pvp, for example, is nice for tying up a single attacker in AB
while you finish capping a flag, since you don't have to stop what you're
doing to cast it.

It's also good if you're getting teamed by a couple people. Seduce can keep
one of them out of the fight for awhile letting you deal with the other more
freely.

[Urbin]

Post by Catriona R

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Catriona R
Is it always better to use instant cast? I'd personally rather pull
with a cast time dot (probably UA, followed by Haunt), but perhaps
that's from habit of always pulling with the longest cast time (which
obviously means less time of the mob beating on me while I cast
something slow, which I could've just cast when it wasn't aggroed!)
Given both are 1.5 sec base time, I suppose that's not such a
consideration though.

The key here is that a pulling spell shouldn't pull much threat. DoTs are
perfect because they piss off the mob immediately, but don't do any damage
for a few seconds, so if you actually want to pet tank, or simply want to
get your rotation unloaded when in a group, you can safely cast them where
a spell with a cast bar will waste time and generally does immediate
damage. *

Makes sense, I'm more thinking of opening with UA that doesn't cause
initial damage anyway. I've been opening with Haunt for the few mobs
I've killed in Northrend so far, for the damage buff, but good point
about the initial damage thing in groups - I guess doing that 2nd
after UA means I'll still have the damage buff up before the first UA
tick and won't hit with damage instantly. Using imp as pet atm so
really don't want it tanking anyway lol.
(Yes, I know you swear by the succubus but... crap gear = could kinda
use the stamina buff atm, my health is THAT low. My target dummy
testing did show me I don't need to rely on Dark Pact like I did in
TBC though; between fel armor and haunt I can easily afford to eat the
health loss from lifetap, so it's not so necessary to use a high mana
regen pet like it was in TBC. Felhunter looks interesting too with its
shadow bite ability, suspect I'll try him before the succubus unless
succubus is massively better, since I really really dislike her :-P)

I've tried using the succubus several times in my warlock career, must have
been in my 40s, again in my 60s, on the way from 70 to 80 and never got
along with her.

I used the VW up to 70, despite its measly damage purely because of a better
alternative :)

With WotLK I found that the fel hunter is brilliant, he's been my standard
pet from 70 to 80+. I read that the imp is viable again, even outside groups
but haven't really tried it as I'm quite happy with my felhunter out.

Cheers
Urbin

[Shiflet]

Post by Urbin
I read that the imp is viable again, even outside groups
but haven't really tried it as I'm quite happy with my felhunter out.

Well, the imp is the pet for destro locks, no aff lock really uses it these
days. Destro locks have Demonic Power, Ruin, and Empowered Imp to buff the
imp's own DPS, and Empowered Imp in turn gives you a chance to have your
next spell be a guaranteed crit, boosting your DPS. Most destro locks then
spec into demo and get Improved Imp, further boosting his DPS. And for
Destro locks totally built to maximize their DPS that aren't concerned about
self healing or supplying replenishment via Soul Leech/Improved Soul Leech
typically spec down into 3/5 Unholy Power to even further boost his damage.

[Urbin]

Post by Shiflet

Post by Urbin
I read that the imp is viable again, even outside groups
but haven't really tried it as I'm quite happy with my felhunter out.

Well, the imp is the pet for destro locks

Ah, thanks.

Cheers
Urbin

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Urbin
With WotLK I found that the fel hunter is brilliant, he's been my standard
pet from 70 to 80+. I read that the imp is viable again, even outside groups
but haven't really tried it as I'm quite happy with my felhunter out.

The imp is superior in some specs (demo and destro seem to like them), and
they still are just about the best sentry since they are undetectable and
can hide in a bush - If I'm stuck alone at say the gold mine in AB, I
think seriously about summoning my imp and putting him up on top of a rock
or alongside the trail, set to aggressive.

They also have ridiculous regen, so if you like to lean on dark pact,
they're a good mana battery. But that's not really the best use for a
warlock pet anyway. *

[Shiflet]

Post by pv+ (PV)
The imp is superior in some specs (demo and destro seem to like them),

Demo uses it's felguard pretty much exclusively. A demo lock with an Imp out
is a demo lock whose felguard died and the lock realized he forgot to
replenish his soul shard supply.

[Shiflet]

Post by Catriona R
Yeah I'm suspecting when I begin to level that I won't use agony much,
may chuck elements up instead if I want a curse up, rather than just
tabbing to the next mob, that'll likely contribute more damage! 10% on
UA and Corruption seems good compared with the very low ticks in the
beginning of CoA, and I very much doubt anything will live close to 24
sec.

When my lock was affliction, I used CoA when I was gathering groups of mobs.
Target one, CoA and Corruption, run to next mob, repeat, tab, repeat until I
had as many mobs targeted as possible, then start collecting loot from the
first dead mobs as the others were dying. I'd also use it on elites and
instance bosses. For single target mobs, I'd just shadowbolt them-faster
killing single targets that way than using ANY dot combo on them...

Post by Catriona R
Is it always better to use instant cast?

It is if you're gathering groups, cause you can do it on the move. For
single targets that you wanna kill, you're honestly better off with
shadowbolt x2(then haunt if it still lives) rather than worrying about
dotting it up.

Post by Catriona R
I'd personally rather pull
with a cast time dot (probably UA, followed by Haunt), but perhaps
that's from habit of always pulling with the longest cast time (which
obviously means less time of the mob beating on me while I cast
something slow, which I could've just cast when it wasn't aggroed!)
Given both are 1.5 sec base time, I suppose that's not such a
consideration though.

Shadowbolt is the standard aff pulling spell. Partly because it's the
slowest cast time spell they use, and partly because it applies 1 stack of
shadow embrace, which makes all your shadow dots do an extra 5% damage per
application.

[Catriona R]

Post by Shiflet
Shadowbolt is the standard aff pulling spell. Partly because it's the
slowest cast time spell they use, and partly because it applies 1 stack of
shadow embrace, which makes all your shadow dots do an extra 5% damage per
application.

Hadn't even thought of that one, I just always dotted mobs up and
moved onto the next, never use shadowbolt outside instances! Hmm I'll
have a rethink on that one then, although I suspect dots will win, I'm
so used to them.

[Urbin]

Post by Catriona R

Post by Shiflet
Shadowbolt is the standard aff pulling spell. Partly because it's the
slowest cast time spell they use, and partly because it applies 1 stack of
shadow embrace, which makes all your shadow dots do an extra 5% damage per
application.

Hadn't even thought of that one, I just always dotted mobs up and
moved onto the next, never use shadowbolt outside instances! Hmm I'll
have a rethink on that one then, although I suspect dots will win, I'm
so used to them.

I only use shadow bolt on non-elite mobs if nightfall procs because I can
then use it on the run. However, if you want to pull a single mob,
shiflet's argument makes a lot of sense, I might replace UA with Shadow bolt
next time I want to do that.

Cheers
Urbin

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Catriona R
Hadn't even thought of that one, I just always dotted mobs up and
moved onto the next, never use shadowbolt outside instances! Hmm I'll
have a rethink on that one then, although I suspect dots will win, I'm
so used to them.

Ditto. I never use shadowbolt out in the world unless I get a nightfall
proc - it's all dots and drains. and I dot the living crap out of stuff -
I'm not happy unless I have coa and corruption ticking on at least 4 mobs
at once.

Shadowflame is also in my mindless farming macro, but never much used any
other time. It's great when you've dotted a bunch because by the time you
get to 4 or so, you have a big clump of angry monsters right in your face,
ready to be set on fire. I don't remember the exact sequence but it's
something like this:

/castsequence reset=target corruption,curse of agony,shadowflame,lifetap,
drain life,drain soul

Tab target like crazy, doing only the first two casts on each mob until you
get to the last one, which you unload the whole set on. This also works in
pvp if you are well protected and in a target rich environment. *

[Shiflet]

Post by pv+ (PV)
Ditto. I never use shadowbolt out in the world unless I get a nightfall
proc - it's all dots and drains.

Do you really need to drain that much? When my lock was aff, the only limit
to the amount of mobs I could fight at once was the amount who were in range
of each other that I could dot before the first ones died, and I never once
had to drain life, and only drained soul if my shards were low/I was in a
boss fight.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Shiflet
Do you really need to drain that much? When my lock was aff, the only limit
to the amount of mobs I could fight at once was the amount who were in range
of each other that I could dot before the first ones died, and I never once
had to drain life, and only drained soul if my shards were low/I was in a
boss fight.

Pretty much true. I rarely have to do much other than the two dots and the
shadowflame while running around like a nut. But the drains and lifetap are
there to finish up with full health and mana if I got carried away. *

[Urbin]

Post by Catriona R

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Peter Knutsen
I was mostly curious about the purpose of the spell, so I tried follow
the advice from WoWwiki in a couple of cases, but the spectacularly bad
results helped me learn real fast.

Well, then maybe it's good for something ... soulfire does have a place,
just not for all specs, not all the time even then, and certainly NOT as a
pulling spell. DoTs are ideal for pulling. You always want an instant cast,
no travel time spell for pulling stuff, especially one that doesn't do much
initial damage. Throwing a soulfire is like a mage opening with a barrage
of arcane missiles or a pyro. Avoid. *

Is it always better to use instant cast? I'd personally rather pull
with a cast time dot (probably UA, followed by Haunt), but perhaps
that's from habit of always pulling with the longest cast time

When you fight single mobs one by one and have an attack you do not want to
do without, the pull is probably the best time to use it.

However, as an affliction warlock, I usually fight a whole lot of mobs at
the same time (smaller lots while levelling, larger lots when farming) so I
just run around, dot everything up with CoA and Corruption, tab to the next
mob. When I feel I have enough mobs beating on me I start draining life or
mana to finish them off in random order. Using a non-instant spell would
just be a waste of time :)

The exception being that when my life goes low and corruption and drain life
don't top it up enough I will throw in a Haunt (or ist it UA, not sure) that
returns life when done.

Cheers
Urbin

[Shiflet]

Post by Urbin
However, as an affliction warlock, I usually fight a whole lot of mobs at
the same time (smaller lots while levelling, larger lots when farming) so I
just run around, dot everything up with CoA and Corruption, tab to the next
mob. When I feel I have enough mobs beating on me I start draining life or
mana to finish them off in random order. Using a non-instant spell would
just be a waste of time :)

This is how I do it as well, except at 80, I basically never had to worry
about draining life, the healing from Corruption and Fel Armor was enough to
negate incoming damage.

Post by Urbin
The exception being that when my life goes low and corruption and drain life
don't top it up enough I will throw in a Haunt (or ist it UA, not sure) that
returns life when done.

Haunt.

Post by Urbin
Cheers
Urbin

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Urbin
The exception being that when my life goes low and corruption and drain life
don't top it up enough I will throw in a Haunt (or ist it UA, not sure) that
returns life when done.

Haunt is my absolute favorite spell right now. Besides being entertaining
to cast (you want to time it so that the next one arrives just as the
current one counts down and starts to return), you can carefully time it
with lieftaps and give healers conniptions trying to figure out how you
KEEP DOING THAT. Hooray for the yo-yo of death. *

[Miikka]

Post by pv+ (PV)

Post by Urbin
The exception being that when my life goes low and corruption and drain life
don't top it up enough I will throw in a Haunt (or ist it UA, not sure) that
returns life when done.

Haunt is my absolute favorite spell right now. Besides being entertaining
to cast (you want to time it so that the next one arrives just as the
current one counts down and starts to return), you can carefully time it
with lieftaps and give healers conniptions trying to figure out how you
KEEP DOING THAT. Hooray for the yo-yo of death. *

Heh. Haunt actually causes quite a lot of jitters to me when healing,
because when I see the spell returning to the warlock from the corner of my
eye, most often the first gut reaction is that it's someone attacking
the 'lock and I start checking if I need to spamheal him until tank grabs
aggro. Then I realise it's just Haunt and mutter some curses at warlocks. :D
(It's a very fun spell when I'm playing my 'lock myself though.)

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Miikka
Heh. Haunt actually causes quite a lot of jitters to me when healing,
because when I see the spell returning to the warlock from the corner of my
eye, most often the first gut reaction is that it's someone attacking
the 'lock and I start checking if I need to spamheal him until tank grabs
aggro. Then I realise it's just Haunt and mutter some curses at warlocks. :D
(It's a very fun spell when I'm playing my 'lock myself though.)

At the time that I first reached 80, I was a little slower than the guild
as a whole, and they had been in naxx for a couple weeks, running with no
warlocks (I'm still one of only three warlocks in the guild, and the only
affliction main). Right after I dinged I got called in to fill out a group,
and haunt bouncing back and forth so confused people that we wiped the
first time with everyone whispering about what the HELL I was doing.

I love the spell, it's an effect fairly unique to deep affliction warlocks,
and you have to keep an eye on it - it's one of the reasons affliction
warlocks don't have a rotation, but a priority system instead. *

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Peter Knutsen
My Warlock just dinged 48 and got rank 1 Soulfire. Is that the combat
opener for the class, meaning an attack spell that takes a long time to
cast but does a lot of damage, and tends to have a good mana economy and
to be used almost exclusively as the first cast because it has too low
DPS for regular use?

Those are all BAD things for a combat opener. Especially in pvp, if your
first action is to wind up a 4 second cast, you're dead meat.

I know soulfire has some utility for some specs (destro I think), but for
me as affliction, it's not even something I put on my bar. *

[Shiflet]

Post by pv+ (PV)
I know soulfire has some utility for some specs (destro I think), but for
me as affliction, it's not even something I put on my bar. *

Destro locks don't touch Soulfire. Ever.

[pv+ (PV)]

Post by Shiflet

Post by pv+ (PV)
I know soulfire has some utility for some specs (destro I think), but for
me as affliction, it's not even something I put on my bar. *

Destro locks don't touch Soulfire. Ever.

As I've said elsewhere, I've been affliction for two full expansions. I
couldn't remember where the item was that sped up soulfire - it turns out
to be on the demonology tree. *