WoW dual wield

[flame_thrower]

Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.

Does it change attack rate effectively? As a rogue are there combos for it?

[Robin Van Hoof]

Post by flame_thrower
Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.
Does it change attack rate effectively? As a rogue are there combos for it?

Well I got a rogue and she uses deadly poison with it. with my two weapons
with deadly poison, it goes to max dmg over time in like nothing (using a
fast weapon on offhand). Don't know if other classes have some benefits as
well.

[Matt Frisch]

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:55:06 -0400, "flame_thrower"

Post by flame_thrower
Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.

Both weapons are given a +17% chance to miss over using a single weapon.

Post by flame_thrower
Does it change attack rate effectively?

Yes. Dual wielded weapons are slightly slower than their listed speed while
dual wielded. I don't know the exact formula for that.

Post by flame_thrower
As a rogue are there combos for it?

Combos? No, but as a rogue you have a number of talents for overcoming the
drawbacks inherent to dualing. You can bring the offhand weapon damage up
to normal, and offset the increased miss chance. If you use one of the
weapon type specializations, and use 2 of the same kind of weapon, then you
are greatly increasing your chance of the specialization effect (like
stuns, for maces) going off.

[Kav]

Post by Matt Frisch
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:55:06 -0400, "flame_thrower"

Post by flame_thrower
Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.

Both weapons are given a +17% chance to miss over using a single weapon.

Post by flame_thrower
Does it change attack rate effectively?

Yes. Dual wielded weapons are slightly slower than their listed speed while
dual wielded. I don't know the exact formula for that.

Post by flame_thrower
As a rogue are there combos for it?

Combos? No, but as a rogue you have a number of talents for overcoming the
drawbacks inherent to dualing. You can bring the offhand weapon damage up
to normal, and offset the increased miss chance. If you use one of the
weapon type specializations, and use 2 of the same kind of weapon, then you
are greatly increasing your chance of the specialization effect (like
stuns, for maces) going off.

I thought you could only bring the offhand weapon up to 75% of max at most?

[Davian]

Post by Kav

Post by Matt Frisch
Combos? No, but as a rogue you have a number of talents for overcoming the
drawbacks inherent to dualing. You can bring the offhand weapon damage up
to normal, and offset the increased miss chance. If you use one of the
weapon type specializations, and use 2 of the same kind of weapon, then you
are greatly increasing your chance of the specialization effect (like
stuns, for maces) going off.

I thought you could only bring the offhand weapon up to 75% of max at most?

Rogues training dual wield specialization get +10% per talent point, to a max
of 5 points. 50+50 = 100%.

IIRC, it's warriors that only get +5% per talent point. For 50+25 = 75%.

[Simon Nejmann]

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:37:11 -0400, "Davian"

Post by Davian
Rogues training dual wield specialization get +10% per talent point, to a max
of 5 points. 50+50 = 100%.

Nope:

Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

Off hand damage starts at 50%, with the talent at 5/5 you raise it to
150% of 50% = 75%.

[sanjian]

Post by Simon Nejmann
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:37:11 -0400, "Davian"

Post by Davian
Rogues training dual wield specialization get +10% per talent point,
to a max of 5 points. 50+50 = 100%.

Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.
Off hand damage starts at 50%, with the talent at 5/5 you raise it to
150% of 50% = 75%.

Could go either way. 50% of the damage you're doing, or 50% of the full
weapon damage? It's difficult to say.

[Simon Nejmann]

Post by sanjian

Post by Simon Nejmann
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:37:11 -0400, "Davian"

Post by Davian
Rogues training dual wield specialization get +10% per talent point,
to a max of 5 points. 50+50 = 100%.

Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.
Off hand damage starts at 50%, with the talent at 5/5 you raise it to
150% of 50% = 75%.

Could go either way. 50% of the damage you're doing, or 50% of the full
weapon damage? It's difficult to say.

Hmm, ok if you say so...
Here's some stuff backing me up: Rogue FAQ v4.1
<http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=7&p=1&tmp=1#post7>

**
Q: How does the off-hand damage penalty work? How is it affected by
the dual wield spec talent?

A: The off-hand normally just does 50% of what it normally would do.
So:
(Weapon DPS + Attack Power DPS Bonus) * 0.5

WIth the dual wield spec 5/5, the off-hand does 75% damage, so just
subtitute 0.75 for 0.5.

The tooltip for the off-hand was previously bugged, causing numbers
which did not make sense. If you had the talent, a weapon would be
listed as doing more damage in your off-hand than in your main. Some
data posted prior to the tooltip fix suggested that the tooltip was
bugged. The change to the tooltip seems to confirm this.
**

[sanjian]

Post by Simon Nejmann

Post by sanjian

Post by Simon Nejmann
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:37:11 -0400, "Davian"

Post by Davian
Rogues training dual wield specialization get +10% per talent point,
to a max of 5 points. 50+50 = 100%.

Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.
Off hand damage starts at 50%, with the talent at 5/5 you raise it
to 150% of 50% = 75%.

Could go either way. 50% of the damage you're doing, or 50% of the
full weapon damage? It's difficult to say.

Hmm, ok if you say so...

And I do. Based on what you had written, with no citations, links, or
references, it was difficult to say. Adding new information does not change
that fact, only casts -new- light on the issue.

Post by Simon Nejmann
Here's some stuff backing me up: Rogue FAQ v4.1
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=7&p=1&tmp=1#post7

Hmm... I notice that it's on a FAQ, and not from a blue. I tend to consider
that "the best information we have at the time" or the most likely
conjecture. I've seen enough confusing, conflicting, or just plain wrong
FAQs over time to call it certain. I recall the fights the "experts" had
over how taunt works in EQ.

[Davian]

Post by flame_thrower
Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.
Does it change attack rate effectively? As a rogue are there combos for it?

Each hand will swing when it's delay is up, resulting in almost twice the
number of attacks. But as Matt posted, the off hand weapon will only do 50%
damage (before talent increases) and both hands will miss more often.

When all things are said and done, dual wielding two equal level weapons
should result in about 120% of the damage of using a single weapon and a
shield, and even to the damage done by an equal level two handed weapon.

[Babe Bridou]

Post by Davian

Post by flame_thrower
Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.
Does it change attack rate effectively? As a rogue are there combos for it?

Each hand will swing when it's delay is up, resulting in almost twice the
number of attacks. But as Matt posted, the off hand weapon will only do 50%
damage (before talent increases) and both hands will miss more often.
When all things are said and done, dual wielding two equal level weapons
should result in about 120% of the damage of using a single weapon and a
shield, and even to the damage done by an equal level two handed weapon.

There are "combos" with warriors beyond the dual wield mastery. Just
have a look at the fury tree: the Flurry talent gives an attack speed
boost whenever you score a critical. As far as I know, critical hits
cannot miss, so when you dual-wield you do basically twice as many
critical hits, resulting, for example with flurry, in 30% more attack
speed... and 30% more critical hits ;)

Say you have 10% base chance to crit every 2 seconds with talents, your
effective chance to crit becomes something like 20% crits every 2
seconds, procing flurry, and improving chance to crit to something like
26% every 2 seconds...

...and if you spec in fury/arms, you can get improved overpower on top
of that, giving you about 50% chance to crit every 5 seconds (because
let's face it, you hit so quickly that your opponent will get a dodge at
least once every 5-6 seconds), and with berzerker stance + impale + deep
wounds + improved cleave + unbridled wrath, you can merrily crit cleaves
all day long :P

Don't get me started on a dual wielding troll fury warrior, should the
enemy get a crit on you, you end up litterally filling the screen with
BIG numbers.

But that's just theory :P

[Matt Frisch]

Post by Babe Bridou

Post by Davian

Post by flame_thrower
Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.
Does it change attack rate effectively? As a rogue are there combos for it?

Each hand will swing when it's delay is up, resulting in almost twice the
number of attacks. But as Matt posted, the off hand weapon will only do 50%
damage (before talent increases) and both hands will miss more often.
When all things are said and done, dual wielding two equal level weapons
should result in about 120% of the damage of using a single weapon and a
shield, and even to the damage done by an equal level two handed weapon.

There are "combos" with warriors beyond the dual wield mastery. Just
have a look at the fury tree: the Flurry talent gives an attack speed
boost whenever you score a critical. As far as I know, critical hits
cannot miss, so when you dual-wield you do basically twice as many
critical hits, resulting, for example with flurry, in 30% more attack
speed... and 30% more critical hits ;)

Not so sure about the basis there. A critical hit of course always hits,
but first it needs to be a hit before it can become critical.

1) Swing attempted.
2) Does it hit? Yes/No
2a)No = Miss
2b)Yes = Is it a crit? Yes/No
2bi)No = Normal Damage
2bii)Yes = Critical Damage.

You seem to be postulating:
1) Swing Attempted
2) Is it a critical? Yes/No
2a) Yes = Critical damage
2b) No = Does it hit? Yes/No
2bi) Yes = Normal Damage
2bii) No = Miss

[Babe Bridou]

Post by Matt Frisch

Post by Babe Bridou

Post by Davian

Post by flame_thrower
Anybody have the details on how dual wield is beneficial to hold two
weapons? The only thing I've found is the offhand weapon deals half damage.
Does it change attack rate effectively? As a rogue are there combos for it?

Each hand will swing when it's delay is up, resulting in almost twice the
number of attacks. But as Matt posted, the off hand weapon will only do 50%
damage (before talent increases) and both hands will miss more often.
When all things are said and done, dual wielding two equal level weapons
should result in about 120% of the damage of using a single weapon and a
shield, and even to the damage done by an equal level two handed weapon.

There are "combos" with warriors beyond the dual wield mastery. Just
have a look at the fury tree: the Flurry talent gives an attack speed
boost whenever you score a critical. As far as I know, critical hits
cannot miss, so when you dual-wield you do basically twice as many
critical hits, resulting, for example with flurry, in 30% more attack
speed... and 30% more critical hits ;)

Not so sure about the basis there. A critical hit of course always hits,
but first it needs to be a hit before it can become critical.
1) Swing attempted.
2) Does it hit? Yes/No
2a)No = Miss
2b)Yes = Is it a crit? Yes/No
2bi)No = Normal Damage
2bii)Yes = Critical Damage.
1) Swing Attempted
2) Is it a critical? Yes/No
2a) Yes = Critical damage
2b) No = Does it hit? Yes/No
2bi) Yes = Normal Damage
2bii) No = Miss

"As far as I know", yes. I'm not sure. I read that somewhere. Hit/miss
is related to attack rating vs defence rating. So is
crit/crushing/normal. Try that with a rogue, for example. Cold blood (I
think that's the one that guarantees a crit) + any attack. See if it
ever misses.

Update: oh, I've just found this blue post:

http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=15&p=1&tmp=1#post15

(http://tinyurl.com/cclup)

Depending on how you read it, crits always crit, and never miss (that's
how I read it, but I could be wrong).

[David Carson]

Post by Babe Bridou
"As far as I know", yes. I'm not sure. I read that somewhere.
Hit/miss is related to attack rating vs defence rating. So is
crit/crushing/normal. Try that with a rogue, for example. Cold blood
(I think that's the one that guarantees a crit) + any attack. See if
it ever misses.

Trust me, it does. :-(

Cheers!
David...

[Babe Bridou]

Post by David Carson

Post by Babe Bridou
"As far as I know", yes. I'm not sure. I read that somewhere.
Hit/miss is related to attack rating vs defence rating. So is
crit/crushing/normal. Try that with a rogue, for example. Cold blood
(I think that's the one that guarantees a crit) + any attack. See if
it ever misses.

Trust me, it does. :-(
Cheers!
David...

/comfort David

[Jack D]

Post by Babe Bridou
http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t
=15&p=1&tmp=1#post15
(http://tinyurl.com/cclup)
Depending on how you read it, crits always crit, and never miss (that's
how I read it, but I could be wrong).

As I interpret the post, the game sets the three percentages (%Miss
%Hit %Crit) and puts them on a 100% bar, it then rolls and selects the
relevant attack type.

In the example (15% Miss, 60% Hit, 25% Crit), you'd get for a /random 100 :
1-15 : Miss
16-75 : Hit
76-100 : Crit

Post by Babe Bridou
Try that with a rogue, for example. Cold blood (I think that's the one
that guarantees a crit) + any attack. See if it ever misses.

I don't know if Cold Blood's +100% to crit, actually doubles the Crit%
or adds 100% to it, but let's assume the latter. When you look at the
formula the +% To Crit is subtracted from the %Hit and doesnt influence
the %Miss chance. Based on the above %'s, I'd expect Cold Blood to
change them to:
(15% Miss, 0% Hit, 85% Crit)

So the Miss% remains the same.

[Babe Bridou]

Post by Jack D

Post by Babe Bridou
http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t
=15&p=1&tmp=1#post15
(http://tinyurl.com/cclup)
Depending on how you read it, crits always crit, and never miss (that's
how I read it, but I could be wrong).

As I interpret the post, the game sets the three percentages (%Miss
%Hit %Crit) and puts them on a 100% bar, it then rolls and selects the
relevant attack type.
1-15 : Miss
16-75 : Hit
76-100 : Crit

Post by Babe Bridou
Try that with a rogue, for example. Cold blood (I think that's the one
that guarantees a crit) + any attack. See if it ever misses.

I don't know if Cold Blood's +100% to crit, actually doubles the Crit%
or adds 100% to it, but let's assume the latter. When you look at the
formula the +% To Crit is subtracted from the %Hit and doesnt influence
the %Miss chance. Based on the above %'s, I'd expect Cold Blood to
(15% Miss, 0% Hit, 85% Crit)
So the Miss% remains the same.

Ok. So back to the dual-wield discussion, you get a +20% chance to miss
when dual-wielding.

one-weapon setup:
5% chance to miss
90% chance to hit
5% chance to crit
speed: 0.5 attacks/sec (for example)

Over 40 seconds, that's:
1 miss
18 hits
1 crit

dual-wield setup:
25% chance to miss
70% chance to hit
5% chance to crit
speed: 1 attack/sec (for example)

Over 40 seconds, that's:
8 miss
30 hits
2 crits

So unless you have more than 75% chance to crit, dual wielding doubles
the amount of critical hits (which matches the feeling I get with my
level 29 fury warrior).

[David Carson]

Post by Jack D
I don't know if Cold Blood's +100% to crit, actually doubles the Crit%
or adds 100% to it, but let's assume the latter. When you look at the
formula the +% To Crit is subtracted from the %Hit and doesnt influence
the %Miss chance. Based on the above %'s, I'd expect Cold Blood to
(15% Miss, 0% Hit, 85% Crit)

Sounds about right. Cold Blood sometimes misses, but it never hits
without critting.

Cheers!
David...

[Matt Frisch]

Post by Babe Bridou

Post by Matt Frisch

Post by Babe Bridou
There are "combos" with warriors beyond the dual wield mastery. Just
have a look at the fury tree: the Flurry talent gives an attack speed
boost whenever you score a critical. As far as I know, critical hits
cannot miss, so when you dual-wield you do basically twice as many
critical hits, resulting, for example with flurry, in 30% more attack
speed... and 30% more critical hits ;)

Not so sure about the basis there. A critical hit of course always hits,
but first it needs to be a hit before it can become critical.
1) Swing attempted.
2) Does it hit? Yes/No
2a)No = Miss
2b)Yes = Is it a crit? Yes/No
2bi)No = Normal Damage
2bii)Yes = Critical Damage.
1) Swing Attempted
2) Is it a critical? Yes/No
2a) Yes = Critical damage
2b) No = Does it hit? Yes/No
2bi) Yes = Normal Damage
2bii) No = Miss

http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=15&p=1&tmp=1#post15
(http://tinyurl.com/cclup)
Depending on how you read it, crits always crit, and never miss (that's
how I read it, but I could be wrong).

That is some funky math indeed. From the formula at the bottom, notice how
the +crit chance is subtracted from the "Hit" chance.

I guess both of the above scenarios are wrong. The actual method the game
uses is:

1) Swing Attempted
2) Is it a Miss/Hit/Crit?
Miss: No damage.
Hit: Damage
Crit: Crit Damage

There is another oddity in that formula...if you want to have a very
crit-intensive build, then you really really want to avoid getting +hit
chance items, because they will actually directly subtract from the rate at
which you get crits.

I guess the system works, but geeze, that just seems like a really bizarre
way of doing it.

[Babe Bridou]

Post by Matt Frisch
That is some funky math indeed. From the formula at the bottom, notice how
the +crit chance is subtracted from the "Hit" chance.
I guess both of the above scenarios are wrong. The actual method the game
1) Swing Attempted
2) Is it a Miss/Hit/Crit?
Miss: No damage.
Hit: Damage
Crit: Crit Damage
There is another oddity in that formula...if you want to have a very
crit-intensive build, then you really really want to avoid getting +hit
chance items, because they will actually directly subtract from the rate at
which you get crits.
I guess the system works, but geeze, that just seems like a really bizarre
way of doing it.

I think +hit modifies your chance to miss - funkier that way ;)

[Matt Frisch]

Post by Babe Bridou

Post by Matt Frisch
That is some funky math indeed. From the formula at the bottom, notice how
the +crit chance is subtracted from the "Hit" chance.
I guess both of the above scenarios are wrong. The actual method the game
1) Swing Attempted
2) Is it a Miss/Hit/Crit?
Miss: No damage.
Hit: Damage
Crit: Crit Damage
There is another oddity in that formula...if you want to have a very
crit-intensive build, then you really really want to avoid getting +hit
chance items, because they will actually directly subtract from the rate at
which you get crits.
I guess the system works, but geeze, that just seems like a really bizarre
way of doing it.

I think +hit modifies your chance to miss - funkier that way ;)

Hmm, so what happens if you get +30% or so of to-hit? You can't exceed 100%
on all possibilities, so those percentages have to come from somewhere. Or
perhaps it is capped. Or +crit takes precedence...

ie: I have a 30% crit rate. No matter how much hit rate I have, crit can
never be less than 30%, so with the built-in minimum of a 5% miss rate, any
+hit items past 65% are wasted.

[Jack D]

On 2005-06-29 10:13:47 +0200, Matt Frisch

Post by Matt Frisch
ie: I have a 30% crit rate. No matter how much hit rate I have, crit can
never be less than 30%, so with the built-in minimum of a 5% miss rate, any
+hit items past 65% are wasted.

Indeed. To recap formula:

Miss Chance = (Original Miss Chance) - (+Hit%)
Hit Chance = (Original Hit Chance) + (+Hit%) - (+Crit%)
Crit Chance = (Original Crit Chance) + (+Crit%)

If the sum of the original chances is 100%, it will remain 100%. As
each value has a lower limit (0% for %hit, 5% for %miss), there is a
cap to all the +% items.

+crit% > (Original Hit Chance) + (+Hit%) is purged
+hit% > (Original Miss Chance) - 5% is purged

Visually, +hit% will move the point between the miss and the hit region
and +crit% will move the point between the hit and the crit region.

[Simon Nejmann]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:18:13 GMT, Matt Frisch

Post by Matt Frisch
Not so sure about the basis there. A critical hit of course always hits,
but first it needs to be a hit before it can become critical.

Yep.
Blue post tells us:
<http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=15&p=1&tmp=1#post15>

**
motive has shared some details on the calculations of hit and crit
chances:

part 1

The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not
based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that
5% chance includes misses.

All crit rate adjusting abilities, items, and talents add the flat %
to the base % crit rate. So if I have a 5% base crit rate and then use
an item or talent that increases that crit rate (let's use Improved
Backstab talent for example - +30% crit), my new crit with backstab is
35%.

Regarding how defense decreases the rate of critical strikes, each
point of defense that a target has over the attacker, the attacker
loses 0.04% chance to crit. So, for example, if a level 60 Rogue is
attacking a level 60 Warrior who has 25 defense, the rogue's crit rate
will be decreased by 1%.

part 2

+toHit items subtract from your miss%.

So, ignoring all defensive actions (Block/Parry/Dodge/etc..) if I have
20% crit chance, 20% miss chance, and 60% hit chance and I equip an
item that gives me +5% toHit and +5% crit, my stats become 25% crit,
15% miss chance, 60% hit chance.

New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit
modifiers)
60% + 5% - 5% = 60%

New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers)
20% + 5% = 25%

New miss chance - (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers)
20% - 5% = 15%
**

[Davian]

Post by Babe Bridou
There are "combos" with warriors beyond the dual wield mastery. Just
have a look at the fury tree: the Flurry talent gives an attack speed
boost whenever you score a critical. As far as I know, critical hits
cannot miss, so when you dual-wield you do basically twice as many
critical hits, resulting, for example with flurry, in 30% more attack
speed... and 30% more critical hits ;)

Yes, they will get more flurrys. But the flurrys themselves won't mean as
much, since they will have the increased miss rate, and off hand swings (for
50% damage) will still count against your fast swings.

(If the recent changes to flurry make this not true, then ignore me. I
forget exactly what they changed about that skill, and I'm not motivated
enough to look it up :) )